11-12-2001 01:38									#31
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Disguise yourself as George W. Bush.

	11-12-2001 01:39									#32
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quote: Damn straight you would. Btw, this whole thead is a joke. America can never be defeated, as was shown in the revolutionary war or say 1812. No one can attempt to match the hope and courage only we have recieved. Europeans can pride themselves on the BBC or whatever all they want, and the frenchies can eat every potato or croissant their petite hearts desire. Moving on, if anyone ever attempted to conquer the United States, they would immediatly be killed and their country destroyed within days. Or, in the case of rouge state-sponsored terrorism, like what's going on in Britain or even Canada right now, economics would also play a factor as well as laser guided bombs or cancelled alliances. Finally, everyone and anyone here who suggests a plan to destroy America should personally be arrested and tried for treason on the spot (a luxury you don't deserve, but hey). International wannabe spies like osweld or markl would quickly be deported and jailed in a military tribunal. No questions asked. Commie fools.

	11-12-2001 01:40									#33
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The US is closer to 'sponsoring terrorism' than the UK.

	11-12-2001 02:42									#34
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Destabilize the nation by rigging elections, using well-placed bribes, etc. to get corrupt, incompetent bureaucrats who are in your pocket everywhere in the federal government. Have them promote stupid un-Constitutional policies, like repressing dissent and passing a Constitutional amendment through Congress that would severely limit the existing Bill of Rights (and then apply have your pocketed Congressmen and generals apply economic, political, and even military pressure on the states until they agree to ratify the amendments).

Now you've got a nation ripe for revolt. Sneak a nuke into Washington DC (no need to use an ICBM, you don't want American satellites to track where it was launched from and retaliate, instead you want to confuse the hell out of the feds) and cut the head off of the federal government. Your generals who are left alive will then stage a military coup by declaring emergency powers.

Now you've got two options, depending on how things seem to be going-- you can either side with the states against the military, or you can side with the military against the states. I recommend the former; you can have your generals killed off immeidately prior to or immediately after you declare your allegiance, cutting the head off of the provisional government. The remains of the military will probably dissolve, since the soldiers and second-tier officers probably weren't all that thrilled about the military coup in the first place. If you want to limit your options but help assure the success of the states against the military, you can have your corrupt Congressmen anger and emasculate the military (before you blow your Congressmen up, of course).

Sign trade and diplomatic treaties with individual states before the civil war is completely resolved, in order to help assure that a strong central government will not rise from the ashes of the old strong central government. Wait a few years; if you've done your job then the states will keep their militias, but the US military will no longer exist by virtue of the fact that the US no longer exists. Now have your armies attack from Canada and Mexico. So long as the states do not put up a combined resistance, you've got a pretty darn good chance at a victory.

	11-12-2001 02:49									#35
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Grr, double post. What the heck has been going on with the forum lately? Page reloads take forever, and I don't think that it's on my end.

Last edited by loinburger on 11-12-2001 at 02:56

	11-12-2001 03:38									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ok, I am a REAL Proud American, maybe TOO Patriotic fer sum of u fellas taste......but here goes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


The real way I see anyone could possibly take over AMERICA, Theses United States Of;

1) Would be start a post (Gaurd it so it dont get THREAD-JACKED!!!!!) asking for anti-Americanism posters to form a militia

>>>>>>>>>The way I see it is, there is a bunch 'O u folks hangin 'round<<<<<<<<<<

2) While you foreign Militia and self-proclaimed fed-up wit 'merican lifestyles plot and plan our demise,

3) Of course our FBI & CIA would be watching every post,focusing on what YOU are saying in da post;

4) The N.R.A. (Not the National Rifle Association!) but the Neanderthal Redneck A$$kikers would be buying up all the RED,WHITE & BLUE (thats not the Flag,Old Glory).REDNECK WEAPONRY
,WHITE SOCKS and BLUE-RIBBON BEER

Plus some Beef-Jerkey to chaw on

5) Now, you Militia would be able to do a surprise attack whilst us deciphers read this post,'cause the #$@*&%$ page -loading time would catch us with our overalls around our bare ankles......


Now All them thar X-Perts whom post here on how bad America is, and have signed with their mark on da enlistment line for foreigners Militia, take a step forward and SAY 'ELLOO 2 MY liiitttttlle friend

Oh and another thing, better luck ifin you attack the north during NASCAR (I mean Hibernation) season so as to avoid large troops movements along the racin circuit!

Ok, Varmints >>>>>Quit yer SQUAKIN and Start a walkin

H-I-N-T Now this is where you loud-mouth anti-AMERICANS tell me how bad,weak and inferior we as a nation are! So, HERE'S YER SIGN and (((RINGIN DINNER BELL))) come and git some!

Yours In Civin

Troll

	11-12-2001 03:59									#37
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You guys are all wet! To conquer the US here's what you need to do: (1) Place sleeper agents in selected city and counnty governments all across the country. (2)On the next presidential election day have the sleeper agents sabotage the balloting in such a manner to render critical elections too close to call, yet easily contestable. (3)When the civil war breaks out carefully pit the various opposing sides against each other, keeping the conflict going until all sides are exhausted and demoralized.

	11-12-2001 05:28									#38
	Put an end to popups!

As many posters have noted, the homeland of the United States cannot possibly be conquered in a straight military engagement. If we were to be conquered and controlled, the following defenses would have to be dealt with:
1) A few thousand nuclear weapons
2) Our navy, backed by land-based aircraft
3) Standing land-based conventional forces and reserves
4) Millions of willing militiamen/draftees, which could be organized by any remnants of the army.

Frankly, any one of these would be too much for anything smaller than the Warsaw Pact in its prime. In the cold war our primary fear was getting nuked; neither we nor the Russians ever seriously considered a conventional invasion of US soil.

Splitting us up wouldn't do too much. Texas alone has a size and GDP equivelent to a European nation, and I'm fairly sure that in the face of any external threat all AMericans would cooperate anyway.

I wouldn't bet on any scheme to make us fight each other. Even if it worked, the victor or remnants would probably still be too strong to defeat and control in a land-based action. Plus we'd probably still have all the nukes.

Basically there are only three only viable options:
1) A massive first strike with weapons of mass destruction.
2) Cause the nation to rot away from within before striking.
3) Do not allow the people to realize that they are being conquered.

If you want to use WMD and avoid retaliation, you have to use a fairly untraceable means of terrorism. A large number of covert operations teams would have to plan and execute sumultaneous chemical, biological, and/or radioactive weapon attacks all over the country. All military and command and control structures, and a good deal of the population, would have to be taken out instantly. Then you might have a chance of taking over, but expect decades of revolts and partisan activity from whoever remains.

Number 2 must be an extremely long-term plan. You would have to manipulate politics, economics, and technology to render all of our institutions and military poor and obsolete. Sort of like what has happened to Spain since the 1600's.

Number 3 is my personal favorite. If I set out to conquer the world, I'd start by making a corporation, probably a software and/or entertainment company. I'd slowly insinuate myself into the popular culture, using my entertainment to stupefy and brainwash the populace while I get my software onto as many computers as possible.

Then I'd try to slowly expand into high-tech hardware, winning as many military weapons and NASA development contracts as possible. Only then would I attempt to corrupt officials, and then in small places like NASA and the military. I'd insert eavesdropping and minitoring equipment into many of their satellites and installations, insuring that I have constant access to privileged information. Knowledge is power, after all, and it can be far more useful than money for corrupting people.

If I were lucky enough to make a really good breakthrough like a quantum computer, I would take advantage of this by keeping its existence carefully hidden while manipulating things to my advantage.

For example, I might promote general use of an encryption scheme that can be easily cracked by my technology.

To avoid suspicion, I would probably want to keep these companies seperate as a legal fiction, controlling them all with various puppets. Sometimes I would arrange for these puppets to get investigated by the Justice Department or the SEC, in order to make them look like incompetents and keeping up the illusion that the government is still in control.

My final goal in all of this would be the development of really good subliminal message hypnotism. Even a rudimentary level would allow me to maintain my software user base and entertainment audiences, even if better alternatives become available. As the technology progressed, it would enable me to slowly gain more control over humanity. What use is political or military power when I can control the minds of all of humanity as they sit in front of their televisions and computers, oblivious to my very existence?

	11-12-2001 05:47									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove You guys are all wet! To conquer the US here's what you need to do: (1) Place sleeper agents in selected city and counnty governments all across the country. (2)On the next presidential election day have the sleeper agents sabotage the balloting in such a manner to render critical elections too close to call, yet easily contestable. (3)When the civil war breaks out carefully pit the various opposing sides against each other, keeping the conflict going until all sides are exhausted and demoralized.

Hey, we already HAD THAT, with The Democrats subverting the great Republican way of life!

Yours In Civin

Troll

	11-12-2001 05:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns As many posters have noted, the homeland of the United States cannot possibly be conquered in a straight military engagement. If we were to be conquered and controlled, the following defenses would have to be dealt with: 1) A few thousand nuclear weapons 2) Our navy, backed by land-based aircraft 3) Standing land-based conventional forces and reserves 4) Millions of willing militiamen/draftees, which could be organized by any remnants of the army. Frankly, any one of these would be too much for anything smaller than the Warsaw Pact in its prime. In the cold war our primary fear was getting nuked; neither we nor the Russians ever seriously considered a conventional invasion of US soil. Splitting us up wouldn't do too much. Texas alone has a size and GDP equivelent to a European nation, and I'm fairly sure that in the face of any external threat all AMericans would cooperate anyway. I wouldn't bet on any scheme to make us fight each other. Even if it worked, the victor or remnants would probably still be too strong to defeat and control in a land-based action. Plus we'd probably still have all the nukes. Basically there are only three only viable options: 1) A massive first strike with weapons of mass destruction. 2) Cause the nation to rot away from within before striking. 3) Do not allow the people to realize that they are being conquered. If you want to use WMD and avoid retaliation, you have to use a fairly untraceable means of terrorism. A large number of covert operations teams would have to plan and execute sumultaneous chemical, biological, and/or radioactive weapon attacks all over the country. All military and command and control structures, and a good deal of the population, would have to be taken out instantly. Then you might have a chance of taking over, but expect decades of revolts and partisan activity from whoever remains. Number 2 must be an extremely long-term plan. You would have to manipulate politics, economics, and technology to render all of our institutions and military poor and obsolete. Sort of like what has happened to Spain since the 1600's. Number 3 is my personal favorite. If I set out to conquer the world, I'd start by making a corporation, probably a software and/or entertainment company. I'd slowly insinuate myself into the popular culture, using my entertainment to stupefy and brainwash the populace while I get my software onto as many computers as possible. Then I'd try to slowly expand into high-tech hardware, winning as many military weapons and NASA development contracts as possible. Only then would I attempt to corrupt officials, and then in small places like NASA and the military. I'd insert eavesdropping and minitoring equipment into many of their satellites and installations, insuring that I have constant access to privileged information. Knowledge is power, after all, and it can be far more useful than money for corrupting people. If I were lucky enough to make a really good breakthrough like a quantum computer, I would take advantage of this by keeping its existence carefully hidden while manipulating things to my advantage. For example, I might promote general use of an encryption scheme that can be easily cracked by my technology. To avoid suspicion, I would probably want to keep these companies seperate as a legal fiction, controlling them all with various puppets. Sometimes I would arrange for these puppets to get investigated by the Justice Department or the SEC, in order to make them look like incompetents and keeping up the illusion that the government is still in control. My final goal in all of this would be the development of really good subliminal message hypnotism. Even a rudimentary level would allow me to maintain my software user base and entertainment audiences, even if better alternatives become available. As the technology progressed, it would enable me to slowly gain more control over humanity. What use is political or military power when I can control the minds of all of humanity as they sit in front of their televisions and computers, oblivious to my very existence?

Hmm..I believe a few years back Activision came up with that creation, package in the Call To Power game, called AI Entity!

Yours In Civin

Troll

	11-12-2001 06:02									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The best way to conquer the US is to indoctrinate a bunch of leftists into opposing anti-terror measures by the government, which are definitely what's best for the nation.

Or so Ashcroft says.

	11-12-2001 06:57									#42
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Okay, I usually think of ways to destroy things in my free time- (I am not crazy- I merely like to think of doomsdays scenarios)
Here is an abbreviated version-->

1.) Some group sponsors home-grown terrorists in the US and supplies guns to several groups. (Left wing- right wing etc.)
2.) Some group sends viruses of some sort (smallpox- gotten from the USSR)
3.) The smallpox is released in subways somewhere (a la china)
4.) Terrorists poison water supplies in several cities with bacteria or dinoflagellates of some sort
5.) They tell the left wing or right wing that if they assist with the assault, they will rule.
6.) some Americans revolt and may take one nuclear silo
7.) The country attacking america would try to assassinate the president with a suicider and hope for confusion.
8.) In the confusion, they launch a nuclear arsenal from submarines in the waters.
9.) Submarines are untraceable, US nukes someone who is not guilty-->other countries are angered, they may send nukes.
10.) Nuclear winter.

Probably unfeasable, but plausible.

	11-12-2001 07:19									#43
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Anyone who says the US could be conquered - even an alliance including the entire world - is quite obviously daft.

First of all, we'd just nuke the **** out of you. Bye-bye world.

But I'll play along. Conventional forces only.

US vs. World

First of all, US vs. world is bullshit. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that China, Japan, Russia, Australia/New Zealand, and the entire EU+Canada ally, with many other nations around the world. However, the following nations would DEFINITELY line up with the US:
1)Israel
2)Taiwan
3)South Korea
4)Possibly many of the Gulf States.

This means the following:
1)China is essentially cut out of the war, because of both South Korea (with a reserve force of 4.5 million men) and Taiwan (huge air-defense network, essentially un-invadable by China). China, and probably Japan too, would spend all their time fighting these two nations. Ironically, Japan would have an easier time against them than China would, but without totally neutralizing both nations Chinese, and probably Japanese, interference against the Continental US would be impossible.
2)In the Middle East, Israel would, for a good amount of time, pretty much **** up the Middle Eastern militaries. The EU would probably have to devote major air resources to the Middle East to defeat the IAF, and after a war against Israel no Middle Eastern nation would be able to commit troops against the US, Turkey probably wouldn't either.

So, for major combatants, we are down to the following:
On one side, the USA.
On the other, the EU, Russia, India, and Australia New Zealand.

Additional problem:

US bases around the world would have to be neutralized, most particularly Diego Garcia. Unfortunately, India probably does not have the capability to invade Diego, and in any case could not make any reasonable contribution against the US other than naval power.

Okinawa and Hawaii, in the Pacific, would also be additional obstacles for China/Japan/Australia/New Zealand to overcome, EVEN IF China/Japan were able to decisively defeat Taiwan and South Korea, and still have enough of a military intact in good condition for further fighting (not bloody likely). Okinawa is home to the 3rd Marine Division, and Hawaii is home to the 25th Light Infantry Division. Further, the US 8th Army and attached air resources are in South Korea.

OK. So here it is.

Let's assume that the US has 8 aircraft carrier battlegroups available for use (I'm lowballing that, probably more like 10 or so would be available). In addition, the US has over 50 nuclear-powered attack submarines and around two dozen SSBNs, which could serve as fast-attacks in a pinch. The US also has something known as SOSUS, meaning the US would be able to detect the majority of enemy submarine activity in the Atlantic and Pacific.

If the EU's navy was foolish enough to sortie and challenge the US Atlantic Fleet, I'm seeing something like the following:

4-5 US CVBGs plus numerous submarines, against the combined EU/Canadian/Russian fleet, consisting of, probably, a maximum of 8 V/STOL carriers, with Harriers and, for the Russians, the Yak-38 (IIRC), plus the usual assortment of escorts. Now, MarkL has argued that the anti-US fleet could be covered by fighters operating from Canada, Greenland, and Iceland. For Canada, there is no way - Canada would be getting hit daily by the USAF, which is far stronger than the 80-odd F-18s Canada can put up. USAF would defeated the CAF with almost no losses, more than likely, and there is no real way Europe could station aircraft in Canada. As to Greenland, the airfield infrastructure is not really there for massive aircraft deployment. In Iceland it is, to a larger extent, what with Keflavik AFB which the EU could probably seize, along with the other civilian or older military fields. Problem, though, with using Iceland and Greenland is that US stealth bombers would basically unleash their arsenal on both places. Even JUST using B-2s, the US could make operating from either place a very risky proposition. Then add in US submarines hitting them with missile strikes. The airbases would simply be non-operational, or at BEST, a very few number of Euro/Russian aircraft could operate from them.

So we're back to the naval war. In a pinch, the air wings on US carriers could be beefed up to probably two squadrons each of F-14D Tomcats and F/A-18E/F Superhornets. That's basically 48 fighters per carriers, times 4 carriers is 192 fighters, or times 5 carriers is 240 fighters. I don't know the exact loadouts of the basic European V/STOL carrier, but I guarantee you it isn't more than 15 or 20, tops - and no, those carriers aren't really big enough to add more aircraft on. It wouldn't matter, anyway, though, because the Harrier is far inferior to the F-14 or the F/A-18. US CVBGs would dominate the skies of the battle very quickly.

Obviously, the next target would be any transports carrying equipment to Canada (the men would be mainly flown over on military transports - assuming Europe could build a successful airbridge, which I doubt, and further assuming they could break through a major US air blockade of Canada, which I also doubt). US B-52H Stratofortresses could launch stand-off anti-ship cruise missiles at the EU/Russian navy, and the F/A-18s from the US fleet could likewise engage the opposing navy. Additionally, US submarines could rip into it, after defeating any submarine force Europe could put out (don't even try to tell me Europe/Russia could win a sub war, Europe doesn't have enough advanced subs and Russia doesn't have enough working ones). The EU/Russian navy would cease to exist somewhere in the Northern or Mid-Atlantic following a major battle.

This secures the US's eastern flank. We'd already be tearing down into Mexico - deploy a couple of armored or mechanized divisions, with some support, and Mexico's army would disintegrate, along with whatever Central American allied forces came to Mexico's aid. Mexico would be out of the war in weeks. Canada, likewise, would probably be invaded in a few key spots, but not all across the front. The object of the US Army would be the destruction of the Canadian army - not a difficult task if you look at force structures - and possibly the occupation of the Canadian breadbasket. Any Canadian push into Alaska would be stopped by the US brigade stationed in Alaska (forgot which one), and let's face it, Russia's Far Eastern Military District is in no state of readiness to invade ANYTHING. Hell, the war with Chechnya ate up most of the Russian army's reserves of many key supplies, and most of those supplies are in the West anyway. Sure, they could transfer assets to the East, but that would take a while, considering the logistical situation of supplying a large army in Siberia, and then Alaska. After the defeat of the EU/Russian fleet and Canadian air force, US air power could begin to operate against Russian Far Eastern bases anyway - they don't have a formidable air force in the Far East, either.

As I've already stated, America's western front is secured by South Korea and Taiwan (no one in their right mind could say either nation would go against the US). But even if they DID, the Chinese/Australia/Japanese/Russian Pacific fleets are even less of a threat than the EU/Russian Atlantic force, and the US would have approximately the same amount of naval power to combat this - in an ocean with many major US bases, specifically Okinawa, Hawaii, Guam, Saipan, etc.

The war against America would be lost at sea, there is no way around that.

Wow, long post - fun to write though, and I'm bored off my ass anyway

	11-12-2001 09:24									#44
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HOW TO BEAT THE US OF A

Operation Flaming Death
Step 1 Send Eurocoms to US
Step 2 Watch the fireworks

Operation Macross
Step 1 Send bad pop singer(s) to US
Step 2 Sing bad songs, causing great confusion and mental damage
Step 3 Take over the brain dead US

Operation Holo Halo
Step 1 Wait for holodeck tech
Step 2 Get US prez in one
Step 3 Make him tell all the nuke codes, and kaboom

Operation Wealth Victory
Step 1 Mind control Bill Gates
Step 2 Send in spys to bribe all cities

Operation Redneck Victory
Step 1 let Al Gore win next election
Step 2 tell Republicans Gore cheated in the election and had a blow job in office
Step 3 Nuff said

quote: China is essentially cut out of the war, because of both South Korea (with a reserve force of 4.5 million men) and Taiwan (huge air-defense network, essentially un-invadable by China).

HA, China have the world's biggest army. Without westen support controlling the seas, south korea and Taiwan would be starved to death in weeks.

quote: 1)Israel

Didn't you know the Israeli Zionist Conspriacy?

quote: Okinawa is home to the 3rd Marine Division, and Hawaii is home to the 25th Light Infantry Division. Further, the US 8th Army and attached air resources are in South Korea.

Okinawa is too far for logestics, and they can just bypass them. South Korea can't attack China effectively nor could it sustain war for any amount of time if sealed off by Japan.

quote: 50 nuclear-powered attack submarines and around two dozen SSBNs, which could serve as fast-attacks in a pinch.

No SSBNs ok. I guess europe just have to send $$ to russia to help maintain its 40 some nuclear attack subs.

quote: Even JUST using B-2s, the US could make operating from either place a very risky proposition.

Eat long wavelengh radar

quote: though, because the Harrier is far inferior to the F-14 or the F/A-18.

Really..... ?

Anyway, its going to be like Civ2, where wars lasts 999999999 years before cities change hands. Attacking is plain impossible, unless I until I constructed my gekiganga army.

	11-12-2001 11:29									#45
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quote: HA, China have the world's biggest army. Without westen support controlling the seas, south korea and Taiwan would be starved to death in weeks.

Who said the US wouldn't control the seas? I thought I showed how they WOULD in my post. In any case, we are talking about a protracted ground war in South Korea with a potential South Korean army, on the defense, of almost 5 million men. Granted, China, North Korea, etc., could mobilize more, but we're talking about a war taking years to win. To say nothing of Taiwan - China simply doesn't have the amphibious assets to invade, period.

quote: Okinawa is too far for logestics, and they can just bypass them. South Korea can't attack China effectively nor could it sustain war for any amount of time if sealed off by Japan.

Bypass Okinawa, including of course the Marine Air Wing there? I think not. Of course South Korea can't attack China - but China can't bypass South Korea, either. And Japan can't seal off South Korea in the face of US naval superiority. Remember, the Japanese Self Defense Navy is nothing more than an admittedly high tech frigate and destroyer navy.

quote: No SSBNs ok. I guess europe just have to send $$ to russia to help maintain its 40 some nuclear attack subs.

I guess, war would be over though before those 40 nuclear attack subs could be brought to bear

quote: Eat long wavelengh radar

Which I suppose stops stand-off attack munitions too?

quote: Really..... ?

Uh....yes really.

	11-12-2001 14:51									#46
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and now my answer. As has been said before. You would practically need the whole world to do it. And I'm talking about 2002. Not 50 years from now.

First of all. You need a unified- important: unified middle east on your side. Every single oil producing country must be on your side. Second is China and Russia. they must be on your side. Not necessarily supplying troops (china and russia agreeing on anything is impossible), but at least providing monetary support. But at least 1 of those 2 nations has to engage the U.S. Next is central America. Securing Mexico as an ally is impossible. Central America is much more plausible. Obviously in this case Mexico must be conquered which shouldn't be too hard. Then an invasion into the southwest and Texas can begin.

The first stage of the war involves Alaska. The pipeline must be destroyed and air superiority must be achieved. An invasion is near impossible due to terrain and weather. Air superiority will render this state useless and all oil production nil. Next step is Hawaii. This one is the hardest objective. Again occupation is not necessary. Only the destruction of the naval base and air superiority. Both China and Russia lack the capability of ahieving this. The only possible way is to obtain aircraft carriers from England and use them to bomb hawaii with backup from either China or Russia. Obviously Russia would need some financial help, but with it, their submarines would be very effective.

The next step is destroying key U.S. bases overseas. The U.S. air forces has very important bases in Iceland and Greenland. These must be eradicated before any kind of superiority over the Atlantic can be thought of. Next step would be to secure over 100 submarine (these need not be nuclear- electric ones are actually quieter). These can be used to eliminate convoys and the U.S. atlantic fleet.

The fourth step is attacking Mexico from a staging point in central America. A swift invasion force will get a quick surrender. From this air superiority over parts of the U.S. can be secured. First priority is Texas and southern California. The rest is useless. Key dams must be destoryed the southwest.

As a take over the U.S. east coast is impossible- nuclear weapons must be used on new york, boston, Atlanta, and washington D.C. Seatle must also be nuked because of it's hard to reach location.

From this momentum obtain support from South America. This should ensure momentum is kept. the last push will be the gulf coast and Florida. Securing these areas will lead to an internal collapse of the U.S.

One last thing. Every single aircraft carrier (there are 12) must be destroyed the first week of the war. Tactical nukes and spies are the only way to accomplish this.

But even if all that went right. I would say there is a .01% chance of that plan succeeding.

Last edited by Dis on 11-12-2001 at 15:02

	11-12-2001 15:19									#47
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well we all know that above plan is bullsh!t, but it's all I can think of. It looked good on paper- at least to me. But it still doesn't deal entirely with the problem of the pacific navy. and the atlantic navy solution is thin. And I didn't mention EU/NATO- as they are my model as the attackers.

I'm thinking a economic victory is more plausible. The american economy is strong, much more than I realized. I expected us to take a larger hit than we did after Sep 11. But we are already bouncing back!! But the U.S. economy is getting less and less diviersified each year. You can't have an entire economy based on the service industry!! And the service industry and telecommunications make up an extremely large part of our economy. These are internal devices. There is no external flow of capitol into our economy that I can see. If you can eliminate the demand for these things- you can eliminate the U.S. economy- and thus the U.S.

	11-12-2001 16:46									#48
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oh, so many good plans....too bad we cannot implement them all...heck, implementing any of them would be cool too

	11-12-2001 19:03									#49
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Impossible! USA economic machine is attached to every nation on earth like a leech that acts as a Pancreas. we suck out/produce/sell what we can....but get rid of us and you will likely bleed to death and die of diabetes

lets see what does the US have we really need and can't get anywhere else???
-Brains,...Nope those are imported by the US
-factory Items,...could be produced anywhere(maybe even cheaper.
-Money???
-Corporations?...they'll most probably move out the first moment they see it isn't profitable enough anymore to produce in US and export.
-Space launche base??...nope,Russians have one,Europeans have one outside US,...=> no need for that.
-food?...Lets see here in Belgium each year there are thousends ot TONs of food destroyed just to keep the price up.
-Computer & co(hardware): MADE IN TAIWAN
-Computer & co(software): India
-Internet?...Created by a Belgian and launched by CERN
-OIL??Middle east

So What is left??International embargo would be quite efficient.
What could you do about it?Ask loans back,when nobody listens to you??Treaten to attack if someone doesn't want to trade???


Shade

	13-12-2001 02:19									#50
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Get one guy with a rifle. Smuggle him into the US (obviously not too hard). Hide him in Washington, DC. Knock out cell phone traffic. In the ensuing panic and chaos, have your hidden rifleman walk into the White House. Raise your flag. Restore cell phone communications. TAKE CREDIT FOR RESTORING CELL PHONE TRAFFIC. The US is yours.

	13-12-2001 03:56									#51
	Remove this text

I still think my plan to secure a UK-Iceland-Greenland-Canada transport route would be the best. It can be defended without too many problems by European navies and airforces. Most/all of the route can be patrolled by aircraft, and the combined European and Russian navies will be more than enough to secure the rest, plus the European coastal lines.

If some Pacific nations keep the US navy occupied in the pacific it means the US will have far less ships present in the Atlantic, but even if not I think it wouldn't be all that hard to secure the UK-IL-GL-CA route with just European+Russian navies and airforces.

So this way huge numbers of troops and equipment can be send in from Europe and Russia to Canada.

Dealing with possible US allies. The Arab nations in the world aren't particulary pro-US nowadays, so that leaves only Israel in the middle east.

Israel can't do much either, it's airforce is smaller than Sweden's. Of course the US can station troops and planes in Israel, but what could it do with them? Europe's and Russia's airforces are big enough to defend their homelands from airstrikes, and the groundforces are no where near Europe (unless they are thinking about a D-Day style invasion of Greece or something).

Also, how would the US get forces and equipment into Israel? Not through the Suez canal or the Med Sea, and also not through the Arabs who would never agree to arming Israel.

The Russians can take out Alaska, or at least cut the oil supply.

Even if the US can secure the rest of the Pacific from the Chinese, Indians, and Australians, they'd lose their hold on the Atlantic. So while the US is occupied in the pacific, European, Canadian and Russian forces invade the USA from Canada, quickly taking the biggest industrial centres in the north.

Subuing the American population will be tricky, but after the US is severely crippled from the invasion from Canada it will be only a matter of time before organised resistance ends, and it's only some local militia units to worry about. When it comes to that we can just send in millions of Chinese troops to subdue the population.

And don't give me crap about the American citizens being able and willing to fight a superior invasion force for years. The Americans are living to large for that. They aren't Afghans for crying out loud.

	13-12-2001 04:01									#52
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MarkL, I already explained why Europe/Russia taking and holding a GIUKCanada corridor is not possible in the face of even four or five US carriers and land-based bombers.

You also did not address the point that Canada's air force and army would be decisively defeated early on, nor did you address the fact that Russia just doesn't have the assets to invade from Kamchatka to Alaska.

	13-12-2001 05:58									#53
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Whoa Mark , what are ya smoking?

	13-12-2001 07:29									#54
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quote: Who said the US wouldn't control the seas? I thought I showed how they WOULD in my post.

Sinking ships is one thing....blowing up every air base in costal China, Japan and N-korea is another.

Resupplying North-korea means going though Japan, and that means death. After all, South korea is easily within range of landborn aircraft.

Of course no Pacific power have a decent navy...so here is my plan.

Considering the fact that the US can't take over any of the Asian power in any period of time (billions of ppl) I'll transport a part of my Asian army though Russian rail to Europe. I'll get my fleet and invasion force around England, waiting to pounce on to greenland-iceland-canada. Taking out Greenland isn't easy, but it is (barely) within range of land based air attacks. Once air its attack capacity is taken out, the short Ireland-Greenland gap can be dashed though with relative safely.

Without oversea bases, the US airforce can't do long range strikes effectivily, and I'll just pour all my land air power on the carrier fleets. While defeating carrier fleets aren't easy, once the airwings starting to suffer attrition I'll send european carriers in to drive US back while my troops move in. When that succeeds I'll sent the Huge Chinese army though and quickly move European airforces to what is left of Canada.

Altenative tactic:

Move armies though africa and leap them across to South America. (assuming africa can support this, my guess is not)

	14-12-2001 03:23									#55
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If you dare attack the US, we shall unleash hell!

	14-12-2001 03:35									#56
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USA is unconquerable.

We have 4 regions that can be completely autonomous.

Take out one, you have the other 3 still going full steam to pick up the slack. This is similar to when Soviet Union had a West and an East during WW2. The East still had factories going that were untouchable that kept them in the war.

Most industrial and agricultural production takes place in the Midwest, and this region is protected on all sides by the other 3 regions, plus Canada. No way in hell anybody could penetrate it. So basically you have a region with the resources and output equal to an entire large nation going full strength without being scathed.

You have the greatest industrial output in the history of the world stacked against you, the technology leader, and a vastly underestimated population that rises up and WILL fight to the death if threatened.

But those losers in the Taliban and Al Queda found that out already.

USA! USA! USA!

Attachment: britneyusa.jpg
This has been downloaded 62 time(s).

	14-12-2001 03:37									#57
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If he fires that thing, it will rip the bottom out of the boat!

	14-12-2001 03:49									#58
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quote: MarkL, I already explained why Europe/Russia taking and holding a GIUKCanada corridor is not possible in the face of even four or five US carriers and land-based bombers.

5 carriers won't be able to do much. Typhoons, Rafales and Gripen can lift of from airbases in the UK, Iceland, Greenland and Canada to provide able air support to counter anything the US can throw at them from carriers. Land based bombers are pretty useless too unless the US has clear air-superiority over an area, which it hasn't.

The UK-IL-GL-Ca can be guarded without too many problems.

What does the US have to stop this flow of supplies (other than nukes)?

A. Surface ships
B. Fighters from carriers
C. Long-range bombers
D. Subs

A. Won't be a problem, even if the US can send 75% of it's total fleet (unlikely, cause they'll have to cover the pacific as well to make sure no supplies reach the americas from asia), it won't be a real problem since a combined euro-russian fleet of surface ships is a lot bigger, plus air support is close by.

B. Say the US sends the 5 carriers you mentioned. Let's say they are all Nimitz class. That would make the total number of planes at about 400. All of these will be Hornets and Tomcats. Not bad of course, but European and Russian fighters will be there in far greater numbers, and the European fighters (at least the Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale) are vastly superior to the F-14 and F-18. Quickly the American carriers will run out of planes and have to return to get new ones, if they get that far without being sunk by Euro-Russian aircraft.

C. They will be easy targets for European and Russian aircraft and air defenses, without (m)any American fighters in the area they'll be shot down quite easely, especcially the B-52s and B-1s. The B-2s will be somewhat harder to take out, but those planes are very expensive, carry a smaller bomb load, and will only be availiable in small numbers. Plus, they aren't totally invisible on radar, and they will still be seen by Euro-Russian aircraft patrolling the skies.

D. Europe has many sub-hunting ships and planes that were build en-masse during the end of the cold war to counter the Soviet sub threath. I'm sure the US will be able to use some WW2-German-style sub raids, but in the end won't quite cut it either.


So unless the US commits it's entire navy and airforces (and even then I doubt it) they won't be able to stop the massive number of supplies reaching Canada.

And of course, planes and air defenses will be the first things going to Canada, to protect the Canadians from American airstrikes. And Canada is a huge country, I doubt the US can secure the skies there.

The Atlantic part is pretty much clear now. I only need to work out the Pacific part to make an invasion full proof

	14-12-2001 03:51									#59
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quote: Most industrial and agricultural production takes place in the Midwest, and this region is protected on all sides by the other 3 regions, plus Canada.

We are talking about an invasion FROM Canada. The Midwest would be the first area conquered. After taking the north east and north west too the US doesn't really have that much production capabilities anymore. Sure, it's still a lot, but not nearly enough.

	14-12-2001 03:56									#60
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Lonestar, Ted,
ROTFLMAO


I havn't read the thread (just browsed the pics ) but in the case of a EU - USA conflict (that is entirely possible in 50 years although the chances are very very small) things will be drastically different from what they are now. SO don;t calculate based on how things are now.

Some things that will propably have happened before a euro american war:

_EU will have gigantizise its military forces
_Russia will have a tight relationship with the EU (the next best things to being a full member)


Still it is very imporpamble to have a war. Unless the US doesn't back down on critical for the EU demands. But that is fdar far away in the future. Second and third phase of the EU integration are still a lonmg way off and the US will do whatever it can to hinder them.