11-12-2001 03:25									#31
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quote: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE'S LIVES AND THIER OPPORTUNITIES. Why the hell should you get them rather than someone else just because you have rich parents?

There's no need to shout.

My parents aren't rich.

Even without handout after handout, you can still go to university.

quote: And end up in huge debt, which poorer people can't afford to pay off

If they took a decent degree, they'd be able to pay it off once they start work, no problem.

quote: Rather than mater and pater? Snob.

I'm the furthest from a snob anyone could be.

	11-12-2001 03:30									#32
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Paul Hanson:

I have lost quite a lot of time into student syndicalism, these last 4 years and all of it has been for the sake of future generations.

I don't feel that I harmed my studies by this, since I would probably spend that time in Apolyton or in some computer game, otherwise. In fact I feel that I have learn alot about how society works, which I doubt I would have otherwise.

There remains of course the effect on my future life, which could be detrimental due to possible discriminations and layoffs from bosses etc, or helpful, due to better maturement of my personality. Where I come from, ex-student syndicalists tend to make a good career in politics and in the mechanisms of the state, but that is an option for traitors only.

As for the sucess of the strike, since this is happening for the first time in history and there is no pre-existant international student syndicalist organisation, our goals are limited. We may have figures by next week, after the Brussels events.

	11-12-2001 03:33									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Infatuation BOOHOO! I can't afford a personal jet...the government should buy me one!!

You know that the 'personal jet' is something totally irrelevent to the course of the debate, so quit your boorish tactics.

quote: Good point. However, above a certain level (certainly before degree level) education ceases to become a merit good - think about it...if you entered the labour force as the only person with a degree standard education, your labour would be worth far more than now. As it is, tens of thousands get a degree and them getting a degree brings down your earnings by increasing the supply of people with a degree.

Rubbish. University still teaches skills that school in itself could never teach you. You have to be more self sufficient and do things for yourself. Hence a degree is far more valuable in the workplace than just A-Levels. It is a good sign that we have more graduates in a society, education is higher, more human capital in society.

quote: Rich

That's my name

quote: Why not? It's a good/service just like a house or car is. Expensive cars are the province of the rich but I don't hear you railing against that and saying everyone should have a Jaguar.

The two are not comparable. Someone who drives around in a jag is not an asset to society, will not perform some vital role, will not be on the cutting edge just because he drives a car. Education is not just a personal investment, it is an investment in society to improve the human capital of society. When will you stop comparing apples and oranges. The two are not the same!

quote: Some might argue that it's only if the talent isn't there that the person should spend longer in education. Something to think about.

No, education should be accessible to all and the education should be tailored to the needs and abilities of that person. Some things do not suit others, but peoples talents can lie elsewhere. How will we know what talent is there if we waste it and don't give them an equal chance with the rest of society?

quote: This shows even if you don't have huge financial backing, you can still go to university.

Yeah, and be crippled for the rest of your life. For some it will mean they cannot get to university if they need to secure loans and can't get them, or their education may suffer if they have to work the rest of the time to keep themselves in university.

quote: What a bunch of whiners in this thread, demanding their government give them everything.

Do you have a private health plan Stew? Are you paying your own private pension? No, I didn't think so. Quite the hypocrite act, stop acting like a spoiled brat. Do you think I would have got to university without government funding? Do you? And would you consider me to be a 'good investment' for a nation? You make me sick at times, just because your parents are rolling in money doesn't mean everyone else is. Welcome to the real world Stew, enjoy your stay

	11-12-2001 03:40									#34
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quote: These guidelines of neo-liberalism are postulated as the way to full employment and social justice. What a mistake. Drastically the U.S. example reveals, where this way will lead to: In spite of an ecomomic boom in the 90´s, in spite of low unemployment rates, in spite of the worlds most developed information and communication technologies, in spite of first-class universities the average level of education is miserable. In the following society is falling apart in productive and unproductive "human resources". A neo-liberal caste system with no escape for the uneducated new proletariat is developing. Since the caste of the educated just needs restricted human resources access to this class has to be elité. "Modern" foreigner-policy shows where this way is leading to: Green-cards for the caste of the educated, deportation for useless human resources.

Interestingly enough he makes an excellent case here for privatizing education, as he seems woefully unaware that the majority of the United States' lack of education is the product of state and/or federal run institutions (a.k.a. our public school systems). It appears America, as well as Europe, is feeling the pinch of the scholastic bueracries foibles they have instituted.

The fact of the matter is that unlike a vaccination you can't just give someone an education, they have to want it first, and anyone over the USA has the resources available to get the education they disire. The problem lies in fostering the desire, a desire that our public education sysytem is painfully inadequete at nurturing.

	11-12-2001 03:51									#35
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants The fact of the matter is that unlike a vaccination you can't just give someone an education, they have to want it first, and anyone over the USA has the resources available to get the education they disire. The problem lies in fostering the desire, a desire that our public education sysytem is painfully inadequete at nurturing.

Really? The cost of your education would be just beyond reason to many of your citizens, who would never be able to conceive being able to pay such a sum of money. Thus the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. But it is very easy for you to espouse 'the American way' when you can quite comfortably function within the system. When you can turn a blind eye to those who can't function effectively. I don't see equal opportunities for all, I see those who have money can afford education and the money it brings. Talk about a divided society.

	11-12-2001 03:56									#36
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In regards to the claim that education is on the same level as a fancy car, and is the province of the rich, i say that that cannot be farther from the truth.
As has been proven many times in history, when the gap between the rich and the poor becomes too great, the status quo collapses. Education is a major part of that gap. Without education, only the most low-paying jobs are available. Furthermore, this education gap leads to an inability to fill positions between the manual laborer and the executive: essentially, the most critical part of our infrastructure would no longer exist.
Currently, a significant amount of people in public education would not be able to pay for private education. By forcing them to pay more than a token fee, you are denying the very possibility of escaping poverty.
Latly, in regards to the claim that public education is inadequet, it would be better to improve the system not do away with it.

	11-12-2001 03:58									#37
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A very high %-age of Americans go to university (the figure is something like 50% now, ~30% graduating). Those universities are high quality, even though they have to teach the average person. ~7% of the population are garnering higher degrees.

Don't cry for us, Provost. We don't need it.

	11-12-2001 04:03									#38
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I don't cry for arbitrary nation-state units DanS, I have no attachment to them whatsoever. I do however feel the need to be concerned for the plight of my fellow man.

	11-12-2001 04:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Really? The cost of your education would be just beyond reason to many of your citizens, who would never be able to conceive being able to pay such a sum of money.

That sounds like a value judgement to me. I deem my education to be worth the price I'm paying for it. I can't instill this view in anyone can I? Our public education system has failed to instill this view in most, so wouldn't a private institution be more effective at instilling this as their very existence depends upon it?

quote: Thus the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.

These people you refer to are the ones who were doomed from the beginning by the very system you support -- a state funded public education. Had they been given a choice, since they are already paying for there education through tax dollars, perhaps they would have choose a private education system, but as of now they don't have a choice. If your born into a poor family, in a poor neighborhood, the education you will receive from your local school will also most likely be poor.

The idea of the rich being the only ones with a choice a private system is a falicy. I a private system everyone has a choice. In the current system we have today only the rich have a choice.

quote: But it is very easy for you to espouse 'the American way' when you can quite comfortably function within the system. When you can turn a blind eye to those who can't function effectively.

If poetic bleeding heart liberal waxing is alloted on a per person basis by some higher power, then I suggest you save this tripe for the strike.

	11-12-2001 04:10									#40
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My god, the tears are flowing now. Positively operatic.

The fact remains that at least 30% of the population are finding it possible to complete university. Can't be too difficult.

Debts are hardly evil. To hear it discussed here, you would think they could reposses your children.

I pay $150/month to pay off my college debts--not too much in comparison to others, admittedly. In the scheme of things, it's the best investment I've ever made, even though my degree was in no way practical.

	11-12-2001 04:12									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral Latly, in regards to the claim that public education is inadequet, it would be better to improve the system not do away with it.

Agreed, but the change needs to be fundamental, not the state and federal government tossing a few million dollars, at it as they have already done, or some BS standardized testing.

	11-12-2001 04:15									#42
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And hey...so what if some can't afford education - we need a supply of people who'd work in McDonalds and pull pints in pubs.

	11-12-2001 04:18									#43
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Stew's the cynic! I'm not the cynic!

	11-12-2001 04:19									#44
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants That sounds like a value judgement to me. I deem my education to be worth the price I'm paying for it. I can't instill this view in anyone can I? Our public education system has failed to instill this view in most, so wouldn't a private institution be more effective at instilling this as their very existence depends upon it?

No one is asking you to instill it on anyone, just I agree with the principle that education is free for all, free from privelege, transcendent of commercial transaction. Society functions on more than currency you know.

We all have problems with public education, a lot of it is an issue of social deriliction. Perhaps we need to tackle it at it's roots. Free education for all is a damn good start

quote: These people you refer to are the ones who were doomed from the beginning by the very system you support -- a state funded public education. Had they been given a choice, since they are already paying for there education through tax dollars, perhaps they would have choose a private education system, but as of now they don't have a choice. If your born into a poor family, in a poor neighborhood, the education you will receive from your local school will also most likely be poor.

Oh, the magic bullet eh? Hand it over to private enterprise. From what I have seen of the attempts made in my own country, this is nothing but a 'holy grail' of the right, and a totally unattainable one. I wouldn't like to evaluate what kind of a mess this mentality has made. But mark my words, practice has not borne out the theory to be a good one. Rather, it is a stinking catastrophe, the rich find another milchcow, and conditions do not improve one iota. Again, we need to tackle the issue at it's roots, not just make it someone else's responsibility. All this privatisation thing is simply a matter of 'passing the buck'

quote: The idea of the rich being the only ones with a choice a private system is a falicy. I a private system everyone has a choice. In the current system we have today only the rich have a choice.

You've got to admit, it requires a lot more thought on behalf of a poor person to take the risk over someone who has a rich mummy and daddy to pay for it. Every person should have the same educational opportunities, regardless of parental background.

quote: If poetic bleeding heart liberal waxing is alloted on a per person basis by some higher power, then I suggest you save this tripe for the strike.

Oh, I'm scared



Well you seem to have had it lucky DanS. But lets face it, compared to the military spending of your country, free education would be cheap. Where do your priorities lie?

	11-12-2001 04:22									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Infatuation And hey...so what if some can't afford education - we need a supply of people who'd work in McDonalds and pull pints in pubs.

That is what we have Aberystwyth Economics graduates for

	11-12-2001 04:23									#46
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Rich,

quote: Every person should have the same educational opportunities, regardless of parental background.

In a private education system, everyone would have the same educational opportunities. This fact has already been explained to you in this thread.

	11-12-2001 04:24									#47
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"But lets face it, compared to the military spending of your country, free education would be cheap."



A lot of things would be cheap in comparison. Hey, anybody think they can spend $400 billion in a year?

"transcendent of commercial transaction"



I wonder how you think your education is funded.

	11-12-2001 04:28									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Infatuation Rich, In a private education system, everyone would have the same educational opportunities. This fact has already been explained to you in this thread.

Just let me put my kidneys back in and suture my sides up. You don't honestly expect me to believe that do you? It will be a bidding system, where only those with the best finances will be able to go, and the better establishments will get the richer students, not the more talented. That is exactly the scenario European educational establishments have been moving away from, but alas, taking a few steps backwards more recently.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I dismiss it as ill-thought out and having no grounding in reality.

	11-12-2001 04:31									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "But lets face it, compared to the military spending of your country, free education would be cheap." A lot of things would be cheap in comparison. Hey, anybody think they can spend $400 billion in a year?

Just think of what could be done with it though.

quote: "transcendent of commercial transaction" I wonder how you think your education is funded.

Grants and government paid, thankyou very much. And I am not from a wealthy background, in fact a very working class background. I hope the same opportunities will be afforded to future generations, and that education will not become a province of the rich.

	11-12-2001 04:35									#50
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Oh, the magic bullet eh? Hand it over to public enterprise. From what I have seen of the attempts made in my own country, this is nothing but a 'holy grail' of the left, and a totally unattainable one. I wouldn't like to evaluate what kind of a mess this mentality has made. But mark my words, practice has not borne out the theory to be a good one. Rather, it is a stinking catastrophe, the poor find another milchcow, and conditions do not improve one iota. Again, we need to tackle the issue at it's roots, not just make it someone else's responsibility. All this socialization thing is simply a matter of 'passing the buck'

Doh! I just used a whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing!

quote: You've got to admit, it requires a lot more thought on behalf of a poor person to take the risk over someone who has a rich mummy and daddy to pay for it. Every person should have the same educational opportunities, regardless of parental background.

Right and what you get is the vast desolate gulf of mediocre public education (don't worry I won't be at the strike, so I'm going to use up my quota now). I've already had my share and I'm not going back for seconds. Higher risk equals higher reward my friend, remember that if you're ever going to invest your money. Hey, if there's enough people still interested in the medicrity of public education I see no reason not to keep it around, but lets not pigeon hole every poor person into not letting giving them a choice as to whether or not their going take that risk. For their sake alone you should be supporting this notion.

	11-12-2001 04:37									#51
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"I hope the same opportunities will be afforded to future generations, and that education will not become a province of the rich."

That fear is irrational. Fact is, each and every year a higher %-age of people are going to university (at least in the US). And education in the US is rarely free in total.

	11-12-2001 04:39									#52
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Before the state got involved in education in England and Wales in 1870, the great majority - around 95 per cent - of young people were in schooling, for an average of almost 6 years. Literacy and numeracy were almost universal, and the greatest proportion of school fees were provided for by parents. A similar phenomena occurred in America before government involvement in education there and in Scotland.

Extrapolating from these findings, we could reasonably argue that, had the state not intervened, and had the wealth of people continued to increase, then state intervention in these states to ensure an adequate supply of educational opportunities would not be needed.

	11-12-2001 04:41									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "I hope the same opportunities will be afforded to future generations, and that education will not become a province of the rich." That fear is irrational. Fact is, each and every year a higher %-age of people are going to university (at least in the US).

Same in this country. But there shouldn't be a reversal of trend. Education, IMO, should be a right of all, and no cost should be involved.

And WhiteElephants, what a crap statement. Do you know anything about the post-war period after WW2. Some would consider the establishment of the welfare state, NHS, etc, in this country to be it's greatest move, far above that of the empire, and has contributed so much to the standard of living in this country.

	11-12-2001 04:44									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Just let me put my kidneys back in and suture my sides up. You don't honestly expect me to believe that do you? It will be a bidding system, where only those with the best finances will be able to go, and the better establishments will get the richer students, not the more talented.

What you more accurately describe is the current system of education we have already -- military academies, catholic schools, etc., etc. The problem being that the poor aren't allowed to be one of the bidders as the money they are taxed is already bid for them and bid toward the poor public education they are being given. Giving them that money, which is in effect being stolen from them, would give them a foundation for them to start the bidding. Coming up with the rest would be up to them and, frankly, based on how important their, or their childs, education is to them. As it is now the wonderful world of bueracracy is the one making the decision for the poor people, and in effect saying you're too stupid to make any decision for yourself, so we, the government, is going to make one for you. I, on the other hand, am willing to give the poor a benifit of the doubt and belive that they will make a choice that is most benefical for themselves and not attempt to control their fate, but put their fate into their own hands.

Let the bidding begin!!!

	11-12-2001 04:49									#55
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants What you more accurately describe is the current system of education we have already -- military academies, catholic schools, etc., etc. The problem being that the poor aren't allowed to be one of the bidders as the money they are taxed is already bid for them and bid toward the poor public education they are being given. Giving them that money, which is in effect being stolen from them, would give them a foundation for them to start the bidding. Coming up with the rest would be up to them and, frankly, based on how important their, or their childs, education is to them. As it is now the wonderful world of bueracracy is the one making the decision for the poor people, and in effect saying you're too stupid to make any decision for yourself, so we, the government, is going to make one for you. I, on the other hand, am willing to give the poor a benifit of the doubt and belive that they will make a choice that is most benefical for themselves and not attempt to control their fate, but put their fate into their own hands. Let the bidding begin!!!

Oh come on off it, you don't still honestly believe in this 'tax is theft' nonsense, which is quite honestly just a cynical ploy of certain political organisations. Come on, if you start relying on capitalist methods, all that happens in reality, is that someone will sponge a hefty profit, costs will increase but in reality, service will not be any better. This is all I have seen from privatisation. I do not share your same deluded faith in capitalism, quite the opposite in fact.

	11-12-2001 04:51									#56
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Provost: I have yet to hear a compelling argument why a non-student paid university education is a necessary component of an educated society (rather, I've heard a lot of "this is what I think so it must be so"). In fact, I've yet to hear a compelling argument how a non-student paid university education even affects it positively.

You are getting taken to the woodshed by Stew, for God's sake. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Is this what EU education has come to?

	11-12-2001 04:53									#57
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quote: Come on, if you start relying on capitalist methods, all that happens in reality, is that someone will sponge a hefty profit, costs will increase but in reality, service will not be any better. This is all I have seen from privatisation. I do not share your same deluded faith in capitalism, quite the opposite in fact.

I, as a consumer, will demand better service or there won't be any profit, eh? As the education system in this country is now, I don't have any right to demand because they, the public school system, gets my money regardless, and that, my friend, is no delusion.

	11-12-2001 04:53									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Oh come on off it, you don't still honestly believe in this 'tax is theft' nonsense, which is quite honestly just a cynical ploy of certain political organisations. Come on, if you start relying on capitalist methods, all that happens in reality, is that someone will sponge a hefty profit, costs will increase but in reality, service will not be any better. This is all I have seen from privatisation. I do not share your same deluded faith in capitalism, quite the opposite in fact.

Again, a post of all spin and no substance.

	11-12-2001 04:53									#59
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Why stop at University? Why not just ditch the Secondary and Primary schools, too? I mean, you learn the basics in Preschool. I'm sure you can build on from there.

	11-12-2001 04:57									#60
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In a sense, you (Provost) would then support a company who made a product and charged whatever they wanted, regardless of service or quality, that you had to buy.

Why don't we just charge people to breath and get it over with?

Edited for clarity.