11-12-2001 04:08									#31
	Re: Re: Re: Growing up to be right-wing/conservative Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Infatuation You're best keeping admissions of idiocy to yourself.

Not only are you a pretty weak troll, you're a feeble arsehole as well. Treat people with respect Stew, you have been shown to be wrong on many occasions. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

	11-12-2001 04:11									#32
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Oh my, such a temper tantrum. *crying smiley*

My facts are always on the right side.

	11-12-2001 04:15									#33
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I've become more and more independent as I've grown older.

I started as the classic American left winger -- tax the rich to support social programs for the poor, pro-abortion, pro-drug-legalization, pro-affirmative action, pro-ERA, the fderal government is a tool to bludgeon the less progressive regions of the country into taking care of their disadvantaged.

That lasted until I'd had my wages taxed for about 5 years and stopped taking the concept of revenues for granted. After that I became a solid Libertarian -- end income taxation and only tax consumption, pro-abortion, pro-drug-legalization, the only good law is a dead law, the state governments should have far more power, and the US should have 50 separate experiments, and let capital and the population move to where they are best served.

That lasted until I had a family and stopped taking my advantgaes for granted. I started to see how there is a social net that links us, and that healthy societies do take care of those who have fallen behind, while at the same time allowing those who really want to excel to do so. Above all, allow people to live freely with their religious, sexual, artistic convictions. There is no party in the US that reflects this view. The Democrats and Progressives are still clueless when it comes to releasing the power of the individual to make his or her own choices financially, while the Republicans and Conservatives support brutal Taliban-like pogroms of moral posturing that ruin countless lives because of their insincere vote-sucking from the poor dumb suckers who hold LITERAL a book of myths that is now 2000 years out of relevance in all but a metaphorical sense.

The choice in most elections is: do you want to live in a financial police state where the government steals all your money and then doles it back to you to buy your vote (Democrats), or do you want to live in a moral police state where all politics is a tool used to further the interests of the very rich and large corporate shareholders (of whom I am one, thanks), and in which vast masses of poor, ignorant hayseeds are used to keep dangerous ideas in check ("Now let's burn the observatory and this will NEVER happen again!" (Republicans)). An awful choice, but I still haven't seen a believable candidate for President from the right since, as rotten an apple as he was, Nixon was ridden out of town on a rail.

If someone put together a coalition of people who understood economics (70's style Rockefeller Republicans) and who still appreciated what it means to live in a free, enlightened society (50's style intellectual Stephensonian Democrats) then I'd vote for them straight ticket. Until then I'm stuck choosing in every election, and I wind up voting Democrat about 70% of the time, and Republican about 20%, with the rest falling into "Misc."

Last edited by 9 ECAC Titles on 11-12-2001 at 04:25

	11-12-2001 04:24									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Infatuation Oh my, such a temper tantrum. *crying smiley* My facts are always on the right side.

Always 'right', but never correct.

	11-12-2001 04:40									#35
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Hey Infat, you do realize that when Giancarlo gets back, he's going to want his position back as well, right?

	11-12-2001 04:52									#36
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I was a social liberal and vaguely a fiscal conservative before I became interested in politics. As I learned more and more, I became essentially a social democrat (particularly with respect to education and healthcare), with some significant classical liberal leanings here and there. But about half a year ago, largely influenced by the Spanish Civil War, I went off the traditional political scale to anarchism.

My first ballot will be split between Green and Libertarian candidates.

	11-12-2001 05:01									#37
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On the right Im, (most have heard my reasons)

1)Pro-gun

2)Semi, free market (regulations apply)

3)Definetaly anti-Tax

4)Anti-welfare for people capable of working

5)Anti-Affirmitive action

------------------------

On the left, Im
1)Pro-Choice, But believe late/mid term abortions should most definetaly be phased out in the 21st century!

2)Pro-Safety net. I do believe the government should provide a safety net for the poor who cannot afford medical care.

3)Pro-Eniviroment...im a conservationist and like to leave nature a little better/same then I found it when I go hunting.

	11-12-2001 05:04									#38
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And then Ramo will learn about some other 'cool' thing and become one of those .

I haven't grown up yet, so I can't answer this . But I have changed.

	11-12-2001 05:12									#39
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Damn straight, Immy. We all know anarchism is the ****.

On the other hand, libertarian capitalism is for old farts.

	11-12-2001 05:50									#40
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I'm only 17 - but I can tell you that I used to be baby hitler.


Although, I don't subsribe to the whole left/right thing either, and don't really know (or care) which side I would fit onto. Though I've been told by others that it's left.

	11-12-2001 06:00									#41
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Apparently our personal ideologies depend mostly on our experiences. Plunge somebody into a new situation and their beliefs will undergo some form of metamorphosis. The "good policy" seems to change for every person. Some things would work well for certain people, other things wouldn't. This also has an effect on what we choose to believe: we tend to support, among other things, what is best for our own personal survival. It leads me to wonder whether any of these options- leftist, rightist, independent- really has an all-encompassing solution to our problems. It's no surprise that many people begin to develop their own personal philosophies and leave off embracing those already available as they grow older; this is why you'll find so few people that are really 100% in favor of their particular affiliation. There are always exceptions; that's why you'll find splits within parties.

Anyway, there's no definite tendency from liberal to conservative or vice versa. People will go back and forth as their worldviews change. Some things, however, never change. Not to inflate his ego by quoting him, but I remember AH once saying in a similar thread: "I used to be a right-wing extremist, and now I'm a left wing-extremist. So I never really change, I'm just an extremist."

	11-12-2001 07:23									#42
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drake -

quote: I myself vow allegiance to no group. Never will. Why? Because I don't feel any political group is always right or will always be right. Until there is a day that a party has no flaws (never), I will always be independent.

Does that mean you don't vote since no independent candidate will agree with your ideas of right and wrong either?

Goingonit -

quote: I think that: -Everybody is equal before the law, and everybody has the same rights -You are allowed to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't impinge on me, and the gov. does not have to protect you from yourself -The government does not have to equalize all people. People with merit will do better than those without. BUT I also think that: -Socialized health care and education are good -The rich should pay more taxes than the poor because we all are responsible to our society as a whole, and the rich have a larger ability to contribute.

Do you notice any contradictions in your stated principles? I do:

Forcing others to "join" a socialized health care or education system does not allow them to do whatever they want as long as they don't impinge on you. And requiring "the rich" to pay more money for what you want from government is not treating them equally, equality would require allowing them to make you pay an equal amount for what they wanted. Furthermore, if we are all "responsible to society" (that's a fascistic ideal), then why are some - the rich - more "responsible" than others? Oh, because they can? So much for "equal treatment" before the law...

Seeker -

quote: LOL ask I 'rightist' or 'leftist' how one defines right and left wing....they both start talking at the same time...

I imagine so if you ask them at the same time

quote: LEFTY: The left wing movement is about the securing of rights! RIGHTY: The right wing movement is about the securing of rights!

So because some people are either ignorant or deceitful, everyone on the left and right is ignorant or deceitful?

quote: There is not one ideology that is right, and another that is wrong, they are both full of ****.

Were the Nazis and their ideological opponents both full of ****?

quote: There is only good policy, and bad policy, sound management, and poor management. That's why I voted Liberal here in Canada.

And all these ideological adherents who are full of **** believe in bad policies and poor management? The policy you consider good may be terrible for someone else.

Garth Vader -

quote: I get more and more sick of the selfish, greedy right wing ideas every day.

So my desire to keep what I earn with my labor is greed while your desire to forcibly take it by threatening my life is virtuous?

9 ECAC Titles -

quote: That lasted until I had a family and stopped taking my advantgaes for granted. I started to see how there is a social net that links us, and that healthy societies do take care of those who have fallen behind, while at the same time allowing those who really want to excel to do so. Above all, allow people to live freely with their religious, sexual, artistic convictions. There is no party in the US that reflects this view.

So you rejected libertarianism because you want to force others to hand over their property and time to people you consider more worthy? What if a person's religious convictions do not allow for this theft?

	11-12-2001 09:20									#43
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quote: Originally posted by 9 ECAC Titles If someone put together a coalition of people who understood economics (70's style Rockefeller Republicans) and who still appreciated what it means to live in a free, enlightened society (50's style intellectual Stephensonian Democrats) then I'd vote for them straight ticket. Until then I'm stuck choosing in every election, and I wind up voting Democrat about 70% of the time, and Republican about 20%, with the rest falling into "Misc."

Please describe in detail what these 2 ideologies, as you see them, mean. (70's style Rockerfeller and 50's style Stephenson)

I always felt that was the beauty of the Libertarian Party, in general. It understood economics and still appreciated what it means to live in a free, enlightened society.

	11-12-2001 09:26									#44
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As I see it, I've grown increasingly left wing as I've grown up. People turn to the right wing later in life because they're selling out. They lose their idealism. They start to earn money and they want to keep it. They forget what it means to depend on others for money or not to be able to earn it. They become more selfish.

	11-12-2001 09:50									#45
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Let's face it: most people's politics reflect nothing so grand as a philosophy, but simply their own selfish desires: The young continue to want a mommy and daddy, writ large in the form of the state; the old want to shore up their inadequate authority vicariously through an authoritarian state; and libertarians, as we all know, are hideous social misfits who just want to be (and surely should be) left alone. As Frodo and others have said, politics change for such people because their circustances change, and now they've got different things to be selfish about.

In some ways, the real measure of politics should be: do you hold beliefs that are immediately disadvantageous to you because you believe they are good for society as a whole? If so, your politics may just be an actual politics, and not just a whiny list of demands. Such politics seem to prevail far more in Europe than in the US. Just a thought.

	11-12-2001 19:46									#46
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quote: Does that mean you don't vote since no independent candidate will agree with your ideas of right and wrong either?

All i stated berzerker, is that no party will ever be without fault. Everyones agenda has holes in it. Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians. No group can always please everyone, and that includes me.

I am just saying I will vote for the best man, in whichever party they hapen to be. If they're republican, so be it. If they're a democrat, so be it. It doesn't matter to me. I will vote for the candidates who best represent my ideas at different stages in my life. Voting for someone just because they're a republican or just because they're a libertarian or in the green party is ridiculous. I don't like being lumped into groups like sheep. If someone wants a vote of mine, they're gonna have to work for it. I'm not a patsy for anyone.

I didn't vote for gore or bush in the last presidential election, because honestly, I didn't think either had a very strong case to earn my vote and I was quite indifferent. Having the right to vote is wonderful, but in cases where someone doesnt feel strongly one way or another, whats the point?

	11-12-2001 20:21									#47
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quote:

I get more and more sick of the selfish, greedy right wing ideas every day.



So my desire to keep what I earn with my labor is greed while your desire to forcibly take it by threatening my life is virtuous?


I was actually referring to things like the airline bailout. The companies get millions of tax money and then lay off tens of thousands. I realize that all governments seem to like corporate welfare, but the right seems to be more "pro corporation".

But since you seem to be referring to taxation, I think that since society provides you a stability that allows you to earn with your labor you should provide back to society in order to keep that stability.

	11-12-2001 20:39									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Infatuation My facts are always on the right side.

Giancarlo? Is that you?

	11-12-2001 22:41									#49
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I dont consider myself to be either left-wing or right-wing, but I have noticed that in the last few years some of my left-wing positions have changed. I agree that the terms "left-wing" and "right-wing" are inadequate to really describe in detail how you feel on a particular issue, but at least you can get a rough idea of what someone thinks.

My politics are influenced by what I think would benefit the most people. I dont make up my mind on an issue by looking at my own self-interest. I just want what works the best.

	12-12-2001 01:06									#50
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I wouldn't say that there's a set trend towards right-wing politics, resulting from age and early-onset Alzheimer's disease. I'd say that it's more of a trend away from radical politics on both sides of the spectrum. In all my years of throwing things at the BNP I've noticed one of my missiles ricocheting off a zimmer frame.

	12-12-2001 01:12									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Giancarlo? Is that you?

Nah, if Nimmy were really Giancarlo it would have read "My facts is always on the right side"

	12-12-2001 02:04									#52
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"everyone on the left and right is ignorant or deceitful?"

You got it, first time! The notion of 'right' or 'left' is a mental box that people put themselves into so they don't have to think, IMO.

BTW, a good policy for the nation should, by definition, be positive for the citizens of that nation, so I don't see your point...?

Now there are ideologies which are specific, they actually exist, for example Nationalism vs. Globalism/Internationalism.

	12-12-2001 05:24									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly and libertarians, as we all know, are hideous social misfits who just want to be (and surely should be) left alone.

I don't think Libertarians want to be left alone per se. I'm a Libertarian and I like people. Libertarians want to limit government to what should be its truly legitimate powers. Common defense, a court system to adjudicate disputes, etc. etc. etc.

quote: In some ways, the real measure of politics should be: do you hold beliefs that are immediately disadvantageous to you because you believe they are good for society as a whole?

That's why I am a Libertarian. It would be much more advantageous for me to support a system which transferred wealth from those richer than me to me. I just don't believe government extortion is best for society. Nor do I believe a group of elitists (elected or not) should determine an individuals morality etc etc etc.

quote: If so, your politics may just be an actual politics, and not just a whiny list of demands.

Now you sound like a Libertarian.

	12-12-2001 05:40									#54
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It's been quite heart-warming watching my father become more and more socially liberal as he gets older - he's a baptist minister, and his intrinsic humanity disallows him from condemning all the people he comes in contact with, especially when they share that humanity.

And he hates poverty and inequality with a vengenge that only grows with the years - he da man!

	12-12-2001 05:47									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Seneca And he hates poverty and inequality with a vengenge that only grows with the years - he da man!

Ah, it warms my heart to hear the joys of other capitalists. May he carry the torch for many years to come.

	12-12-2001 06:10									#56
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Actually, one of his pet hates is the notion that free-market capitalism breeds opportunity and equality, so if you see him with a torch, I'd get the f*ck out of the way if I were you....

	12-12-2001 06:25									#58
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Liberal: proponents of change
-the etemology of the word implies a proponent of freedom--eg "Liberty"

Conservative: opponents of change

Definitionally, the Right-Wing in the United States are actually liberals. By trying to change the status-quo of separation of church and state, reduce government size, and cut welfare programs while giving tax cuts to the rich, they are trying to implement change, not stop it. International politics ideologies do not lend themselves to the same definitions as are used for domestic politics. The three main types are: isolationist, realist, and "liberal." There are domestic "conservatives" who are internationally "liberal" in that they propose tax cuts, etc. domestically, but support organizations like the UN, the WTO and such. "Liberals" could also be "realist" in that they support welfare programs but are suspicious of international cooperation. Isolationism just believes that a state should keep to itself as much as possible and reduce international contacts to a minimum.

Left and Right Wings vary from country to country (and there are deep cleavages even between these wings). In the U.S., there are personal liberty lefties who are economic righties. I take on a more constructivist approach...I do not adhere to any overarching political philosophy. For instance, I am anti-abortion, I support Free Trade, and support cutting money to special interests. However, I am also generally anti-death penalty, pro-environment, pro-drug legalization, and I support more accountability in the private sector. Generally, anyone who adheres to a particular ideology does so to reduce the thought that would go into determining their opinion of particular issues. Instead, they go with the flock of ideogauges. Instead of judging the merits of a particular policy, adherents to an ideology just look up what someone else thinks about it. It ends up being a significant obstacle to good policy in the United States.

	12-12-2001 06:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Seneca Actually, one of his pet hates is the notion that free-market capitalism breeds opportunity and equality, so if you see him with a torch, I'd get the f*ck out of the way if I were you....

Well then I can only assume that he'd be off to burn the money in the collection basket donated by his poor and beleagured congregation. That or the tax exemption status of his church.

Two cheers to him!

	12-12-2001 07:05									#60
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Er - he actually barely lives above what I'd consider subsistence level, and raised four children on it. And he still manages to donate time and money to charity. True, his income comes from contributions from the church, but it's not like that's not voluntary. And the church income may be tax exempt, but his personal income sure isn't...

But you obviously know loads about my own relatives that I don't...