11-12-2001 08:56									#1
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Perhaps I can get some help from Mark on this one...

I am wondering what the purpose of these boards are? I always came here to get ideas, answers, tips, stories and so forth about Civ/SMAC/CTP.

But now I have to filter the lists just to find a scrap of anything useful. Vel still posts useful things. I usually go to Creation and Files because no one is whining there.

Look at the list of threads. How many of them say nothing more than: "Civ 3 sucks. I refuse to play because I dont like the default color of the Persians" How many times do we need to see this? The game has been out for a while. Get over it.

But people like yin and Venger still troll the boards for a game they have said many times that they dont like. We got it. You dont like it. Are you actually trying to convince people that do like the game that they shouldn't? Are you trying to take enjoyment away from other people?

Vels strategy thread was exactly what I come to ACS for. The tutorial on how to set starting positions was rather nice. I enjoy talking strategy with people.

But I'm frankly tired of hearing why yin hates the game for the 3872th time. I realize Venger wants it to be easy to conquer the world. Can we put this in a FAQ or something?

I'm not saying they should be banned. Their opinions are valid and they have a right to have their voice heard. But I think everyones heard it by now. How long do we plan on having the same people trash Civ3? When can we get back to making the forums a place where people can share enjoyment of a game. I mean, it is a game, right? We're supposed to be enjoying it. If not, its only a game, you can stop.

Even though I figure this will probably start a flame fest, most of which will probably be yin and Venger attacking me personally for actually liking the game, and being a Firaxis (or Infogrames, or Gaming Industry, or Republican, or Clinton) apologist, and my lack of posts (which is a direct measure of intelligence), and the fact that I'm ignorant (or lazy, stupid, not a warmonger, over 18, an american, etc). Its not my intention.

I want to know what everyone wants for these forums. Is this still I place I should come to find all the info I got when I was playing CivII, SMAC, and CTP2? Or are there better places to go where the signal to noise ratio is higher.

I guess this is just an honest plea: Can we move on to actually playing the game? Could we make a CivIII - Complaints forum where people can share their complaints? I'd say its pretty obvious that the complaints are preventing people from actually sharing ideas, which is what I thought the forums were about?

	11-12-2001 09:05									#2
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Generally folks are complaining for a reason. A very valuable reason.

Since Civ3 is going to sell well there is no way for Firaxis to obtain meaningful criticism outside of fan forums.

This sort of feedback is necessary. How can they learn from their mistakes unless they know what their mistakes were?

You make it seem as if there are only a few people who are unhappy with how things have turned out. This is wrong.

Go look at civfanatics and you will see similar negative feedback. Same on just about any site.

	11-12-2001 09:07									#3
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well said. I don't post much here, mostly because of the sheer volume of the posts. Everything i would have to say is soon wiped clean off the boards in an hour or so.

i haven't been here long enough to *****, but i have noticed alot of "I hate this game". obviously we like it, or we would not be here talking about it.

Just get over it. I don't like every game either, nor do i litter boards with gibbderish about why i hate them.

All worth while posts are gone before most people get a chance to read them.

	11-12-2001 09:11									#4
	Re: Why are you here? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by gachnar Perhaps I can get some help from Mark on this one... I always came here to get ideas, answers, tips, stories and so forth about Civ/SMAC/CTP.

Did they delete that section? I think you can still find them...

quote: I usually go to Creation and Files because no one is whining there.

Way to invalidate everything you say in this post - you didn't even claim the high ground for more than two paragraphs...

quote: Look at the list of threads. How many of them say nothing more than: "Civ 3 sucks. I refuse to play because I dont like the default color of the Persians" How many times do we need to see this? The game has been out for a while. Get over it.

See, the REAL nice thing is that you can see the titles, and read what YOU are interested in discussing, and AVOID what you don't want to discuss.

quote: But people like yin and Venger still troll the boards for a game they have said many times that they dont like. We got it. You dont like it. Are you actually trying to convince people that do like the game that they shouldn't?

I discuss every disagreement I have with the game as well as ways to improve them. I have never just thrown a Civ3Sucks bomb and ran. I will backup every criticism and compliment I have for this game with cogent reason.

quote: But I'm frankly tired of hearing why yin hates the game for the 3872th time. I realize Venger wants it to be easy to conquer the world. Can we put this in a FAQ or something?

I want it to be a challenge for the right reasons.

Right challenge:

Smart AI

Wrong challenge:

Goofy corruption
Giving my conquered city away along with a dozen units that alone could wipeout the enemy Civ.

quote: I'm not saying they should be banned.

Thanks for the graciousness...

quote: How long do we plan on having the same people trash Civ3?

When did Civ become a sacred cow? And I can list two dozen people on this forum who predominantly agree with my and Yins criticisms of this title.

quote: When can we get back to making the forums a place where people can share enjoyment of a game.

Can't we all just get along? Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya...

quote: Even though I figure this will probably start a flame fest, most of which will probably be yin and Venger attacking me personally for actually liking the game,

Find a SINGLE quote where I criticize someone for liking the game.

quote: and being a Firaxis (or Infogrames, or Gaming Industry, or Republican, or Clinton) apologist,

Your post has not been a Firaxist apology.

quote: and my lack of posts (which is a direct measure of intelligence),

Some of the best comments on the game have come from Settler users.

quote: I want to know what everyone wants for these forums. Is this still I place I should come to find all the info I got when I was playing CivII, SMAC, and CTP2? Or are there better places to go where the signal to noise ratio is higher.

You could post about something topical, like an aspect of the game, rather than your apparent inability to get beyond some critiques of the game.

quote: I guess this is just an honest plea: Can we move on to actually playing the game? Could we make a CivIII - Complaints forum where people can share their complaints? I'd say its pretty obvious that the complaints are preventing people from actually sharing ideas, which is what I thought the forums were about?

This is utter nonsense. I have made extensive gameplay suggestions, given people information on the game, shared stories of my game, included pictures of new things in the game (I may have been one of the first to have his Democracy fall from war weariness), posted thanks for all the graphics mods, shared my notes on the game, and have posted both good and bad comments about most of the games aspects. Who are you to question ANY of us about our participation in here?

Venger

	11-12-2001 09:28									#5
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Nope. Not going to try and make peace between the warring factions. Just want to point out that Gachnar basically made a post saying, "Yin and Venger whine way too much, please some one get them and the rest of the people who dislike the game to not post so much." Venger then went in and went point by point, answer the accusations leveled at him (implied and explicit) and did his usual, "check it out, this guy is doing exactly what he accuses me of doing."

Frankly, just about every time one of these kinds of exchanges occurs, I score it Venger 1, OtherGuy 0. Yin is currently in amused mode, I think, and so I look forward to his smiley festooned, glib reply. But Venger is still holding a conversation.

I do agree with Gachnar, btw. This General Forum is getting painful. And we're still getting a lot of "Civ suxx0rs" posts and complaints that reveal mainly that the poster hasn't read the manual or the other informative threads at Apolyton. Oh well. We're also getting "Civ roxx0rs" posts and praise-fests that reveal mainly that the poster can't handle someone criticizing their favorite game. Both of these kinds of posts are annoying.

Gachnar has a point. We do get it, you don't like the game. Jimmytrick (who sometimes annoys me, but then everybody sometimes annoys me so he's in good company) has a good point too, we need to make sure someone hears about the issues so that they get fixed. So...let's keep talking and cease with the yelling.

-Yook, who basically just wanted to point out the funny irony of how often Venger comes out like the sane one.

	11-12-2001 09:31									#6
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Hint #1: Don't try to stop what you think is garbage by posting a garbage post.

If you want to see this forum get better, contribute to it. Don't whine about it. Sound familiar?

	11-12-2001 09:39									#7
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A forum without debate, heated arguements, flame fests, and the occasional bomb-throwing anarchist would be akin to a utopian paradise where everyone was equal and held hands while singing Close to You by the "Carpenters".

Pretty ***damn boring...

	11-12-2001 09:42									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Terser A forum without debate, heated arguements, flame fests, and the occasional bomb-throwing anarchist would be akin to a utopian paradise where everyone was equal and held hands while singing Close to You by the "Carpenters".

You are my personal God...

Venger
P.S. I like that Carpenters tune by the way...and others for that matter...

	11-12-2001 09:53									#9
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The bottom line is its a fan forum. People of all walks of life come in to discuss Civ. So if you want to visit a fan forum expect people to get pissed about something they find extremly frustrating, and other people to tell them to shut up and go to heck etc. This forum represents the bread-and-butter, salt of the earth, rowdy throng of civ game players. Its like walking into a messy rowdy bar, you just have to deal with it when people say stuff you dont agree.

I remember when SMAC came out and a similar thing happened. There was the "OH MY GOD THIS GAME SUCKS" faction and the "SHUTUP YOU MORONS THIS GAME IS AWESOME" faction. The bottom line is after the the former group goes away due to the realization what they dont like isnt going to be "fixed" the latter portion sticks around and forms a great fan community. This is definetly the case with previous Civ games, and Civ 3 is the mother of them all, so dont expect much less.

Theres also the fact that posting on internet boards is not like having a face to face conversation. People on these message boards do not feel as hindered by social pressures/conventions/taboos and post what they really feel in the rawest format not caring what others may think or do.

	11-12-2001 11:16									#10
	Re: Why are you here? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by gachnar Look at the list of threads. How many of them say nothing more than: "Civ 3 sucks. I refuse to play because I dont like the default color of the Persians" How many times do we need to see this? The game has been out for a while. Get over it.

Does anyone force you to read those threads? I mean really, if you really want a pink version of reality where everyone loves Civ 3, you can at least skip those. I don't think you have some contract that says you have to read ALL threads

And on the other hand, look at the threads like THIS. It doesn't seem to serve any more useful purpose, either. Well, unless baiting us whiners into a flame war counts as a useful purpose anyway.

quote: But I'm frankly tired of hearing why yin hates the game for the 3872th time. I realize Venger wants it to be easy to conquer the world. Can we put this in a FAQ or something?

And frankly, I'm tired of hearing "why person X hates whiners" or even better "person X posts the same preconceptions about person Y again, even though nothing from person Y's posts supports that." Can we put those in a FAQ or something?

Frankly, for better or worse, I find the posts about Civ 3 itself -- BOTH those pro and those contra -- far more useful than personal attacks against various forum members. Some of the "whines" were apparently legitimate enough to be addresed in the patch, so they were REAL problems.

E.g., the fact that corruption was getting WAY out of hand, and that it's silly to have Police Stations that don't do jack squat for corruption, was addressed in the patch. Open the editor and you'll see that now the ideal number of cities is increased on all maps, AND that now Police Stations do limit corruption.

That's just one example. Look through the list of changes in that patch, or in the editor, and you'll find more. The bottom line is: if noone offered any feedback, and just held hands and pretended it's a happy world, it wouldn't have happened.

quote: I'm not saying they should be banned. Their opinions are valid and they have a right to have their voice heard. But I think everyones heard it by now. How long do we plan on having the same people trash Civ3? When can we get back to making the forums a place where people can share enjoyment of a game. I mean, it is a game, right? We're supposed to be enjoying it. If not, its only a game, you can stop. Even though I figure this will probably start a flame fest, most of which will probably be yin and Venger attacking me personally for actually liking the game, and being a Firaxis (or Infogrames, or Gaming Industry, or Republican, or Clinton) apologist, and my lack of posts (which is a direct measure of intelligence), and the fact that I'm ignorant (or lazy, stupid, not a warmonger, over 18, an american, etc). Its not my intention.

I don't think anyone will attack you for liking the game. On the other hand, statements like those above are nothing more than an invitation to a flame party.

quote: I guess this is just an honest plea: Can we move on to actually playing the game? Could we make a CivIII - Complaints forum where people can share their complaints? I'd say its pretty obvious that the complaints are preventing people from actually sharing ideas, which is what I thought the forums were about?

I can't see in which way is it preventing the exchange of ideas. Several strategies and a lot of actual historical data have been posted, yes, in the course of complaints.

	11-12-2001 12:14									#11
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I think what gachnar's talking about is the ubiquity, redundancy, and visciousness of some of the complaints. I don't think anyone would mind if there were a thread pinned to the top, titled something like "Flame Firaxis here".

I don't think anyone would mind even if the complaints were always contextual, but they aren't. I opened a thread with three specific criticisms of the game. Within minutes, Yin crashed it and began a string of adversarial posts intended to vent his irrelevant feelings about me personally.

I've often cited Yin and Venger as diametric opposites on the complaint pole. Venger does indeed complain about game aspects. Yin merely complains, period.

	11-12-2001 12:21									#12
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The biggest folly is that of the "anti-whiner" brigade, who believe that posting endless threads complaining about other types of endless threads will solve the "problems".

*sigh* Why can't we all just...get along?

	11-12-2001 16:42									#13
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Libertarian: God, you bore me. I haven't been working hard to argue my points lately, that's true. Why? I was here arguing points and arguing for improvement in the game probably a solid year or two before you even knew the game was in development.

I don't need to justify myself to you, that's for damn sure. If I feel like cutting and pasting my previous arguments, I will. Otherwise, I'll post my dislikes and concerns any damn way I please.

Buckle up.

	11-12-2001 17:19									#14
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As you can plainly see, your perceived self-importance has made no difference.

Any Psych 101 student undertands that you are merely lashing out, no longer just at the game, but at anyone and everyone including people, like me, who had allied themselves with you. The unmitigated contempt, born of your anger, of everyone who actually likes the game's core concepts will be your undoing. You are like the captain who believes that justice can be done only if everyone on the ship drowns with him.

I don't seek any justification from you. You're easier to read than a first grade primer.

	11-12-2001 17:22									#15
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So easy to troll a troller...

	11-12-2001 17:29									#16
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Psych 101 students know nothing except a list of pre-defined behavioural attributes that mean very little when applied outside the narrow scope of the course case-studies.....

As for yin26, I have been reading his posts for the past 2/3 years and the guy generally has a point. Even more so it is generally well argued and well put which is more than what can be said about a lot of the posts here.

I have to agree with the origional poster in that I also feel frustrated at what appears to be a lack of decent discussion about problems with the game (and lets face it, there are quite a few). A lot of threads to seem to degenerate into name-calling and general crap. But then, its a free world.

Perhaps we need a serious discussion forum?

Dave

	11-12-2001 17:36									#17
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Dave:

Your post struck me.

You are right. It's time to quit my little blowing off steam sessions and either contribute or be quiet a while. Thanks for that.

I'll try to lay low.

Yin Out.

	11-12-2001 17:47									#18
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I get a kick outa reading your guys arguments. You guys are too funny.

	11-12-2001 18:47									#19
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When people complain, it doesn't mean they hate the game.

Obviously, most people on these forums play or have played the game. You don't waste your time with subjects that are of no interst to you. When they, or I, complain about certain issues in CivIII, it doesn't mean we hate the game. We try to focus on what could be improved. There is no use in posting over and over again: "We love the cultural thing!", "The AI is so much better than in Civ2!!", "Ah, bombardment is a great solution!"

Hopefully someone will read the complaints and change the game.

	11-12-2001 18:51									#20
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So perhaps I was harsh with Venger.

Sorry.

Here is the point:

Yes. Firaxis needs to hear criticism.
Yes. Many people dont like the game.
Yes. They all should be allowed to voice their opinion.


But should they voice their opinion, every day, in 3 different threads? Now yin and Venger got picked on because they had just finished posting their same (valid) criticisms on a different thread.

Several times I have started reading a thread that would have been helpful until someone disagrees with something Firaxis did. Then suddenly people jump out and say why they hated the game too. Its essentially a thread lock. This happens all the time in General and Strategy. Creation and Files are relatively safe.

Now (though it may not seem so) I want these people to voice their opinions. They deserve to. Venger has a very valid, important and useful point of view to me. So Venger: Sorry. Many others are much much worse than you. I just knew that I could actually hold a discussion with you because you are still actually being intelligent about all this.

So, this is not to criticize or flame. Yin and Venger (and Locutus who is probably not reading this) are some of the intelligent critics: I just want to know what you hope to accomplish. If you want to send a formal complaint to Firaxis, I'll help you. I'll add my complaints. But I dont see what repeating the same complaints in the forums will ever help.

Again, many people are much worse than you. There was a thread that was created for the sole purpose to say: "If you cant kill ships with aircraft I wont play this". There were 3 other threads discussing this. All of them had resorted to Firaxis bashing. There was no longer any discussion of gameplay balance, or making the game fun. It was about comparing it to other games and discussing how dumb Firaxis is.

Some people are saying that I'm whining as much as the critics. I'm not trying to. I really want to discuss what people want to do with their complaints. Do you want to suggest implementable changes to Firaxis? Do you want to send complaints to Infogrames? Or are you just wanting to let off steam?

	11-12-2001 19:04									#21
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gachnar:

Thanks for that. I understand your point very well. For what it's worth, I'm reaaaaaaly trying to just relax and hope for a good Gold Edition. Until then, it's sometimes hard to keep quiet, but I'll try.

--Yin

	11-12-2001 19:31									#22
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Thanks for that. I understand your point very well. For what it's worth, I'm reaaaaaaly trying to just relax and hope for a good Gold Edition.

This is exactly my point. I hope Venger understands too. I have complaints too (most recent: the anti-IFE could have been done better). If I was working for Firaxis, and was planning a Gold Edition, I would want suggestions specifically from you and Venger (and Locutus if he would).

I was hoping we could weed out most of the ranting flames of Firaxis, so we could have intelligent discussions of the things you guys dont like, so that Firaxis can try to fix them. I think that many of us could come up with very good ways of making the game better. But we need to discuss not argue.

	11-12-2001 19:58									#23
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[...a salute to Yin...]

There is no more sure indicator of a man's character and intelligence than that he be willing to change his mind. Your last two posts were humbling, Yin. I'm sorry I was heavy-handed with you. Clearly, you're not such an easy read after all.

God go with you.

	11-12-2001 20:12									#24
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Gach -

I understand your point of view here - and it seems you understand mine. I hope you will see my posts in the future in the light they are offered - usually with a solution to what I feel are problems, and with the goal of a better game for all of us.

Venger

	11-12-2001 20:45									#25
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Libertarian: I'm just too tired these days to try to explain myself, which I'm sure must annoy the hell out of anybody actually paying attention and trying to have an intelligent discussion.

Thanks for trying to give me the shock treatment anyway. Well done. LOL!

	11-12-2001 20:59									#26
	Got spare money?

uh, a rather soppy ending to a nice flaming thread
so lets sum it up:
1) firaxis did some things well, some less well
2) some people like it, some dont. some people hate it, some dont
3) venger promises not to post more than 2 new threads per day

	11-12-2001 21:31									#27
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Well, seems like everyone is getting along...

And just when I was ready to dress my asbestos suit...

	11-12-2001 21:49									#28
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Venger and Yin you are the weakest links good bye

	11-12-2001 23:19									#29
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Ugh. Did you have to invoke that duck sacking botch?

	11-12-2001 23:28									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sorry couldn't resisit.