11-12-2001 22:54									#1
	Vel Contemplates Mod-Making..... Increase Your PM Length

Okay....having played the game and beat the hell out of it on every setting but Deity (hey! Don't rush me! I'm savoring the kill and all that!), I've taken to closely reading the various discussion threads about weak spots in the game.

Some of this stuff, we can't do anything about.

Some of it though, we can, via the editor.

So that got me thinking in terms of a mod.

This is not my thing. I'll say that in advance. I can't manipulate graphics in any meaningful way. I'm no kind of artist at all when it comes to visual media (unless stick figures count), so if I do this, it'll only be with a lot of assistance.

I do have a vision though, of what I'd like the mod to be, and here are a few bits of that:

Combat
Personally, I stopped having trouble with odd combat results a long time ago, when I adjusted my strategy. However, I think that an adjustment to the HP levels between unit ranks is a good thing. As to what the specific numbers ought to be changed to....don't know. Let's talk about that and other possibilities.

Techs!
As I understand it, there are eleven empty slots. That's a lot of flexibililty. A lot of things we could add/change to make the game more interesting and include more tech-tree-driven strats in the game. Again, no specifics in mind just now....I only know that it's doable, and it's something that should be done.

Units
More units, especially in the modern age. At least four of our tech slots should be spent here as well to help flesh out the modern age.

Also, I'd like to see a "generic" unit in each age that requires no resources (again, a plea for graphics! LOL).

Other Stuff
Can one of the board's resident hackers see if there's a way to go in and "turn off" certain units from even being an option to build in the city's governor screen? Specifically, I'm looking to kill off the option to build spearmen the moment that pikemen become available....and keep with that pattern right on through the game. If we REMOVE the option to build outdated stuff, then the AI will have no choice but to build modern units.

The reason I'm posting this here is because I'm looking to foster discussion on it (and I'm also looking for talent! LOL...I know what I want to see in broad terms, and I'm looking to flesh that out here, as well as beg for assistance with the stuff that I"m not so good at). Anything that's seen as a weakness in the system AND CAN BE CHANGED in the editor, let's talk about it.

Specifically, let's avoid talking about stuff that we can't change in the editor. Not only will it not do any good in terms of stuff we can include in the mod, but if we can't change it in the editor, then it probably ought to go in one of the numerous complaint threads.

I'd really like for this to be about what positive changes we can make, and why we ought to.

So....ideas?

-=Vel=-

	12-12-2001 00:02									#2
	Modding hoo hoo wee ha Got spare money?

Hey Vel like in other posts you have displayed an array of great ideas.

I my self would like to throw out a few Ideas.

1. I think that the passage of time if possible to manipulate such a thing, should be turned down to make the years go by slower. This would increase the ancient area a little more and give the game some more turns to really develope a history. Along with a tweek in the Science department making it harder to aquire sed techs thus increasing your ancient era.

2. As far as Techs go I always liked the capatalizim tech from Civ II all it would do in this version is increase the effect of producing wealth in your city. I also thought that a few governments should be added as far as the specifics go I really don't know. I also thought the eras could be broken down more like Ancient-Antiquity-darkages-midival-renisaunce-exploration-industrial-modern.

3. Units I could go on for days. I wont of course I will limit it to a few like a Special Ops unit like the Green Berats or Army Rangers, or Navy Seals Unit. I also think subs should be more covert.

4. More CIVS. The other forum I know is working on an extra Civ project so there would be a Start but deffinatly more CIV's.

Well I will get back to work hope some of these are intellegent Ideas.

B

	12-12-2001 00:23									#3
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increase the ancient age? are you crazy?

naval units is a biggie. There need to be more. And the first priority is to fix the movement!! (if you haven't don this yourself already).

I like the thought of a generic unit a lot. Say a partisan type unit that represents a civ using whatever resources they can scrounge up to defeat an enemy. This would piss me off less than losing to a spearman . But I don't want spearman stats, these partisans should have better stats.

I think at a certain time, upgrading units should be cheaper (there must be a way to accomplish this). There must be a way to let the ai upgrade his units. I think as it is now, the ai lacks the money to upgrade old units.

Longbowman need to be upgradable. I'm tired of seeing these around. They should upgrade to an infantry/rifleman/musketman unit- just put guns in their hands .

	12-12-2001 00:37									#4
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Wouldn't increasing attack power be a better solution than increasing hitpoints? When you increase hitpoints across the board you're guaranteeing one thing: that battles will take longer.

We used to allow up to 255 (I think) hitpoints in the editor, and we had to reduce it because battles would take several hours to resolve.

Dan

	12-12-2001 00:39									#5
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hey I like my battles to be realtime.

	12-12-2001 00:42									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Some people like the Ancient Age. I don't want it to be just for gaining your footing. I imagine giant ancient battles with well astablished Empires. Yes what a rush.

B

	12-12-2001 00:45									#7
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I have giant ancient battles. But they aren't varied. I just use lots and lots of horseman.

	12-12-2001 00:47									#8
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I forgot.

pyramids- too powerful. Put a limit on these- say mass production makes it obsolete.

I see firaxis has toned dowm most wonders- why not the pyramids? Hoover dam has a similar problem. Maybe the cost should be increased on Hoover Dam.

	12-12-2001 00:49									#9
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Hmmm...

Combat - Armies should be able to attack multiple times if the units in them allow it (tanks/modern armor). Perhaps a wider gap from ancient units to modern a/d stats - although I think mainly ships.

Tech - I'd like to see the early industrial age last longer. Specifically, I'd like to see a point in building frigates and galleons, as opposed to just waiting for destroyers and battleships. Thus, a few extra techs would come in handy. Maybe some more modern era techs to spread out the space race a bit. I also think there should be a longer wait between republic and democracy (I think demo should be a modern era thing). As for new governments... only if the AI shows an ability to use them. I don't think adding govts that only the human can effectively use is a good idea.

Units - Ironclads should have the same restrictions as galleys (in terms of sinking in dangerous waters), cruise missles should be able to be loaded onto modern naval vessels (destoyers, nuc. subs, battleships, aegis) and should have precision strike capability upon the discovery of satellites. I think there could be a case for bringing back partisans (pre-req: nationalism?). Those could be the modern age no-resources-required unit (rifleman w/an extra move?). I think I'd like to see cruisers back, and change the destoyer stats. A destroyer is an ASW unit, cruisers are for slugging it out with other surface ships (as are battleships). Indian war elephant change to 5/2/2 from 4/3/2? Just a thought. Longer range for stealth bombers? Should riflemen have 1 more defense?

Other stuff - Longevity sucks as is, any way to change what it does? Can we mess with Shakespeare to make it more worthwhile? This one's probably impossible: any way to somehow add bomber escort missions for fighters? I know, I know, I'm crazy.

Could we make razing a size 25, 5700 yr-old capitol city offensive to the AI, sorta like using nukes? Razing huge, modern cities should have more negative effects. I wish the UN had powers.

Can do anything about the expansionist civs getting the shaft? Is there a way to increase the bonus they get on hut-popping? Specifically, can we adjust it so that they actually get more settlers from huts?

-Arrian

	12-12-2001 01:11									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

I personally tried adding a hitpoint to every experience level, to even out combat... problem was, it broke bombardment. Especially in the ancient/medieval eras. A better solution would be to just add a flat multiplier for each age (although not as drastic as some have suggested, i think). Maybe 1.25 for medieval, 1.5 for industrial, and 2.0 for modern? These are out of a hat, it would require fairly extensive testing to get the multipliers right. Personally I don't have a problem with combat as it is, with the exception of Age of Sail ships, all of which have received a boost in my rules.

The problem with making true obsolete units is that if you don't have the resources, you now can't build *any* units. I think we can agree that would be a bad thing. If you're just talking about not having the option to build them when you have a better tech, that's done for you. The game will only let you build the highest-level unit on each 'tree' that you have resources for.

Changes I've personally made are:
Making Helicopters lose the 'Immobile' trait, so they can perform true insertion/extraction missions.
Creating an 'Attack Helicopter' unit that is a mobile air unit.
Giving Cruise Missiles the 'tactical missile' flag so they can be carried on nuke subs.
Increasing the capacity of Nuke subs.
Drastically increasing the attack of Attack Subs (the first one).
Closing all the upgrade loopholes (swordsmen upgrade to knights, cavalry ugrades to tanks, upgrading to UUs, etc)
Slightly increased the frequency of resources (by no more than 20 in most cases, and none are over 200).

	12-12-2001 01:13									#11
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I'm not as well-traveled in Civ3 yet, so I shall keep my comments brief.

I think the unit obsolesence issue is a serious one, even UUs ought to be eliminated after a while (modern armor replace panzers; Rifleman replace legionary,etc.). That is one of the single best ways to get the AI back into the game.

Naval units have got to have more movement.

I am NOT concerned with the HP/FP issue. That horse is dead, and the AI takes advantage of the way it now stands nicely - and the AI NEEDS that exploit (and so may I, if MP ever comes out).

AI ought to trade techs for money or other techs more. Why does the AI offer a trade in the early game, but then stops? Makes no sense. Either the AI should tech whore, or we should not be able to as badly as we can.

That's all I have at present.

	12-12-2001 01:17									#12
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Velociryx

Here are a few changes I have made that might fit in your mod ideas.

1. Having older units not available on production screen. Going in editor and making units upgradeable seems to fix this. Once the upgradeable unit is discovered, the older unit does not appear in my production options anymore.

Personally I have made just about every unit upgradeable. I realize it does not fit into real life but it feels right in the game for me.

2. Submarine attack and movement values.

Submarine +1 attack, +1 movement
Nuclear Sub, +2 attack,+1 movement

I have made other changes. Most of them apply to making big civs through war viable. Dont think these would fit into your mod. If u want to know these changes just say so.

	12-12-2001 01:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Wouldn't increasing attack power be a better solution than increasing hitpoints? When you increase hitpoints across the board you're guaranteeing one thing: that battles will take longer.

Actually I found that moving from 2/3/4/5 to 3/4/5/7 reduced the number of losses my tanks have against pikeman. Its not dramatic, but increasing hitpoints (according to someone's math) gives a slight advantage to the unit with the higher stat. I use it all the time.

quote: We used to allow up to 255 (I think) hitpoints in the editor, and we had to reduce it because battles would take several hours to resolve.

I would just like to officially say:

ha.

I imagined everyone on the Civ3 dev team sitting around a computer with popcorn and Coke cheering on a 245 HP Knight trying to take a city defended by a 230 HP Pikeman... for 3 hours.

What would y'all think of having multiple versions of units based on available resources?

	12-12-2001 01:46									#14
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Vel

in working with my Blitz mod i have discovered the following about upgrading units

there are two upgrade switches in the editor, one lets you select which unit it will upgrade to and the other is the upgrade checkbox, so with this you could have swordmen become obsolete once riflemen are discovered by selecting swordmen upgrade to riflemen, however if you don't select the upgrade box special ability, then although swordmen would disappear from the build queue, you couldn't upgrade swordmen to riflemen

so you can make units either obsolete, or actually upgradable

also despite what dan says, there is an option where you can cut off battles, so extra hitpoints isn't a problem plus the wait time isn't too bad, i doubled hitpoints in my mod and it hasn't made battles that much longer, but it has made the results "better"

hope that helps

ps once i finish with finals i will update my mod

	12-12-2001 01:56									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Just back from lunch, and I’m glad to see so many responses! WhoooHoooo! Was doing some lunchtime thinking about it, and I think that a mix of increasing HP and Attack/Defense values on certain units is prolly the way to go….a 255HP unit is kinna cool to contemplate, but I have to agree with Dan….go overboard with raising the HP, and you get battles that literally would take days!@

Still, my basic thinking on the current HP thing is this. As it stands now, there is a flat-rate increase in the capabilities of units as they gain rank. I’d like to vary that a little….a conscript say, has 2hp like now, getting one additional hp (3) when he “graduates” to regular (again, like now), but moving to 5-6 when he becomes a Veteran, and again, jumping to 8-9 when he becomes an elite….just seems like it makes the Vet and Elite troops stand out more (though perhaps the HP jump should be reserved for Elite only, in light of Barracks…..more thought needed there).

In any event, one of the elements that makes ancient units competitive with modern ones is the fact that an elite warrior has just as many HP as an elite mech infantry. Any way in the editor to vary this on a “per era” basis (that is to say, an elite warrior tops out at 5 hp, but perhaps an elite Cavalry tops out at 8hp, and an elite mech infantry would have….I dunno…12 or so??? – don’t know if it’s possible or no, but it’s something to think about).

I agree….pyramids are overpowered…..sun tzu’s too, for that matter, and hoover….OTOH, I agree that Shakey’s Theater is underpowered…..anybody know how much freedom we have to mod that stuff??

I also like the idea about extending the lifespan and usefulness of the industrial age navies….perhaps we could (for the moment) arbitrarily say we’ll spend three of our open tech slots here, to give the navies a longer shelf life? Armies SHOULD be able to blitz, IMO…I like that one!

Questions I have:
Is it possible to “freeze” a given unit at a set number of HP? That is to say….I make a flamethrower unit, give him heinous attack power, but make it where he only has 3hp and can never get more. GREAT unit for clearing out tough to root out defenders, but he can’t ever get “stronger” from a HP standpoint. Can it be done? Anybody know?

Terrain tiles need addressing. Is it possible to add additional resources AND MAKE THEM WORK in the game? Let’s say I want to make a “junkie” unit. Can I make an “opium” resource and set it as a requirement for the junkie? (no…I was NOT seriously considering that…lol). This would enable us to make jungle/tundra tiles competitive again too…..

The goals of the mod are these:

To give the player more options, the ability to explore more and different strategies, and to encourage a deeper level of game play.

Specifically, here’s what I’m looking for:

Alternate government types

Unit names/ideas/graphics

Tech names/ideas/graphics

More of the sort of *excellent* ideas that have been fronted here so far!!!

Question – any way to create an entirely new building for civs, or can we just modify the existing ones?

I’ve been considering doing a slight edit on the pricing for units. It likely would not be a huge change….more of a tweak (make swordsmen/horsemen LESS of a good deal, make Musketeers more competitive – Alternate plan re: musket men/musketeers: leave the price alone but give them ZOC, making them the only infantry based unit from that time period with ZOC).

Give every unit with a missile weapon a slight bombard (so it’ll get a freebie shot on incoming attackers). It’d be NICE if we could give Pikemen a freebie shot on incoming cavs, but I don’t see how it’s possible.

Re: Changing the upgrade path for ancient/middle ages offensive units (swordsmen, horsemen, knights, longbow) – I’m on the fence here. One the one hand, you’re absolutely right….all you gotta do is put a gun in the guy’s hand, and you’re all set, but….I DO rather like the fact that not allowing offensive troops to upgrade into the modern era sets up an opportunity cost for attacking (puts the attacker on a very definite timetable….his army has a shelf life….use it or face obsolescence. Not 100% sure. Convince me?

Other stuff:
Units in every age that have no resource requirements: Same stats as their resource-requiring counterparts, but with a 50% shield markup (Light Tank, same stats as a tank, no resource requirements—assumes that the civ building it has scrounged around from wherever to pick up the needed materials….but it carries a hefty shield markup). Do that same sort of thing across the board. “Frontiersman” = Musketman without saltpeter, “Partisan Rebel” = Infantry minus the requirements, etc.

Also, include “normally priced” or closer to normally priced variants (again, no resource requirements) with lower a/d/m values to add variety, HOWEVER, when the list of units is expanded, the “null resource” units will not get those expansions. They get the basics, and that’s it. This will make resource acquisition more of an optional deal than an outright requirement, and if the “other units” are attractive enough, the incentive will certainly be there.

I like the idea of an extended ancient era, but I suspect there will be many who balk at it. How long of an extension did you have in mind?

Thank you to those who have contributed so far! Keep the ideas coming! Discussion is step one….finding people with the skills needed to make it look cool will be step two….step three will be the magic….

-=Vel=-

More later!

	12-12-2001 02:04									#16
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quote: When you increase hitpoints across the board you're guaranteeing one thing: that battles will take longer. We used to allow up to 255 (I think) hitpoints in the editor, and we had to reduce it because battles would take several hours to resolve. Dan

Well, there could be an option then to only see the result of the fight, and not the actual fight. Or a multiplier to deal with 2, 5, 10, 20, 50 rounds in a row and make it faster.
Same to the hit point bar, so it won't be too big (if it's not the case, I still did not tried with very big numbers).

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Wouldn't increasing attack power be a better solution than increasing hitpoints?

[/B]

It's not the same. Increasing the Attack of the attacker change the chances of winning a round, while increasing the Defense of the defenser decrease the chance for the attacker to win the round.
Increasing Hit Points diminish the dispersion (which means that the more the HP, the more predictable the fight is), while increasing FP increase the dispersion (which means that the more FP, the less predictable the fight is).
Low HP/high FP increase the possibility for bogus results, high HP/low FP increase the chances of the stronger to win.
Low A/high D increase the chances of the defender to win, high A/low defense increase the chances for the attacker to win.

*broken record rant on*
Give us back the FP/HP on a unit basis ! It allows such more subtle ways to mod...
*broken record rant off*

	12-12-2001 02:14									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Still, my basic thinking on the current HP thing is this. As it stands now, there is a flat-rate increase in the capabilities of units as they gain rank. I’d like to vary that a little….a conscript say, has 2hp like now, getting one additional hp (3) when he “graduates” to regular (again, like now), but moving to 5-6 when he becomes a Veteran, and again, jumping to 8-9 when he becomes an elite….just seems like it makes the Vet and Elite troops stand out more (though perhaps the HP jump should be reserved for Elite only, in light of Barracks…..more thought needed there).

The problem here is that Elite units will be hugely more powerful than regulars. And there will be even more bogus result when a elite old unit will fight a regular modern unit.

quote: In any event, one of the elements that makes ancient units competitive with modern ones is the fact that an elite warrior has just as many HP as an elite mech infantry. Any way in the editor to vary this on a “per era” basis (that is to say, an elite warrior tops out at 5 hp, but perhaps an elite Cavalry tops out at 8hp, and an elite mech infantry would have….I dunno…12 or so??? – don’t know if it’s possible or no, but it’s something to think about).

Well, basically you ask for the return of the HP/FP system from Civ2. Pleased to see I'm not alone

	12-12-2001 02:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Wouldn't increasing attack power be a better solution than increasing hitpoints?

AIGGHH!!! NO NO NO! Tell me you guys have at least read the combat discussions here...

quote: When you increase hitpoints across the board you're guaranteeing one thing: that battles will take longer.

I've doubled them - it's not bad really, although 2 armies fighting would REALLY suck. Luckily the AI doesn't use armies...

quote: We used to allow up to 255 (I think) hitpoints in the editor, and we had to reduce it because battles would take several hours to resolve.

Dan -

Simple solve.

Checkbox on game startup - simplified combat. Simplified gives us what we have now.

Non simplified simply modifies the HP by 10 (like in Civ2). Combat loop simply checks for the mode and only updates the HP bars every 10 HP, and only interfaces with the game animation every 10 HP. Combat calculations are heinously fast, you should be able to resolve 1000 rounds of combat in a single second.

This would be pretty easy to add, and would go a long way to getting rid of the outliers that we complain of (spearmen beating tanks).

Venger

	12-12-2001 02:24									#19
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Vel -

I think it's too soon to do a defintiive, wide scope mod. Too much of the game system is in flux. Honestly, I've thought of my own mods, extensive mods, that would REALLY improve Civ3. But I'd rather:

1) Give Firaxis a little time to clean Civ3 up and polish it.

2) Not reinvent the wheel - why create a huge mod pack that get's broken or obsolete with the next patch?

I would LOVE being on an official Apolyton Civ3 mod team - but I think we are jumping the gun too soon. Let's not bring a knife to a gunfight...

Venger

	12-12-2001 02:39									#20
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Hiya Venger! Was hoping you and Yin might head this way at some point.

I agree that it's too soon to DO the mod, but not too soon to start talking about what it might include. I don't intend to lift a finger just yet, except to see what is and is not currently possible in terms of modding the game (and that too, may well be subject to change).

Still....if we start talking about a mod in terms of what we can change (and given that Dan has already put in an appearance here), perhaps this thread will be digested by the powers that be, and we'll start seeing some of the stuff that we would have modded anyway in a forthcoming patch.....how's that for sneaky?

-=Vel=-

PS to Venger 'bout not wanting to bring a knife to a gunfight.....LOL...WHAT?! After all the posting you've done about inferior units being able to beat more advanced ones?! C'mon dude....you know you'd have a chance....

Sorry...couldn't resist the temptation to add that....heh

Last edited by Velociryx on 12-12-2001 at 02:54

	12-12-2001 02:55									#21
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My suggestions:

The industrial era needs some serious work for builder-style play. There's exactly 2 buildings and 2 wonders for the entire era, so the new techs can be used to fill in here. Suggestions: Urban Planning, Taylorism, Telephones, Public Finance, Modern Architecture.

On the call for old units to become obselete once new ones are researched: the reason it takes spearman so long to become obselete is that they can be built without any resources at all, while every defense unit after until rifleman needs a resource. I think you can no longer build them if you have iron; if you lose iron, the option comes back.

	12-12-2001 03:11									#22
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quote: Specifically, I'm looking to kill off the option to build spearmen the moment that pikemen become available....

This sort of change would damage a strategy I often use, which is to cut off the resources of other civs. Without resources, the AI cannot build Pikemen, Riflemen, Mech. Infantry, etc. which gives me a huge combat advantage. Resource allocation is an attribute of Civ3 that I *really* like, and don't think it should be changed or modded.

	12-12-2001 03:16									#23
	Remove this text

hmm that login looks too close to mine. I didn't think I remembered posting that

	12-12-2001 03:27									#24
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is there a way to increase hp's based on the type of unit? This could alleviate problems. But I don't miss FP at all, it's not that important. But the ability to modify HP's would be very nice for mod packs.

but for now the previous suggestion of bumping all the hit points up by 1 seems like a good idea. Helps smooth things over a bit I would imagine.

Does anyone think harbours are too powerful? I can't see how a harbour can build a vet ship. We need shipyard city improvement. Although I don't like to complain about harbours because I always build them . And yes raising the attacks of naval ships as mentioned earlier seems like a wise decision. They seemed low when I first saw their stats.

also manufacturing plants come too late. although they probably are too powerful, so this is probably a good thing. But I don't know, I have never built one

the modern age in general seems to come to late . well not really. year wise it is OK. But the modern age is lacking in interest for me. I'm looking for some ways to beef it up.

more advances as has been mentioned earlier are nice. Telephone etc.

offshore platforms come too late as well. I'd like to see these come slightly earlier to make island cities more viable in late industrial and modern era.

Last edited by Dis on 12-12-2001 at 03:32

	12-12-2001 04:17									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Venger Luckily the AI doesn't use armies...

Huh? I've run into AI armies in just about every game I've played. And that's just at regent level. Do they STOP using them at higher levels?!

	12-12-2001 04:25									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident more advances as has been mentioned earlier are nice. Telephone etc.

The Internet -- Makes three unhappy citizens in each city content (access to porn), but increases corruption and waste 20% across your empire (people would rather sit around on forums all day than go to work).

Of course, then you'd have to remove one of the five modern age researcher titles to replace it with "Al Gore".

"Sir, Al Gore has invented The Internet! What would you like to work on now?"

	12-12-2001 05:25									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So many contributions, so little space... hmm... I'll limit myself to one idea for now.

I think that resources should be very important, but not critical. Venger and I have discussed elsewhere about the real problem being if the human gets all of a particular resource...*poof* there went the challenge.

I consider resources as extra-pure or especially accessible locations, whereas the actual resource exists everywhere. To this end, the presence of a resource makes it easier to build certain units, but it doesn't make any particular unit stronger.

I have created duplicate units for all units which require resources, and made them available without the resource but at a higher cost. This simulates the extra effort required to extract the resource from non-ideal locations. In the game, this allows anyone without the resource to build that type of a unit if they're willing to pay the extra cost.

Personally I use a very steep penalty (3x cost) because I like feeling the need to acquire the resource, but this can of course be seasoned to taste...

	12-12-2001 06:06									#28
	Hmmm Full PM-box? Change here!

By increasing hitpoints it does make the latest tech units stronger, but this would result in an easier game since the human player often takes the lead later in the game. Perhaps if industrial age units had a slight increase in production cost & modern age units had a significant increase in production cost it would balance things out or make things more challenging for the player. Especially since the AI loves to build obsolete units.

quote: Huh? I've run into AI armies in just about every game I've played. And that's just at regent level.

I've done Regent games & I rarely see an AI army if ever.

quote: also manufacturing plants come too late. although they probably are too powerful, so this is probably a good thing.

If they were allowed sooner they should be decrease from +2 production per square to +1 production per square. This would limit their power.

quote: the presence of a resource makes it easier to build certain units, but it doesn't make any particular unit stronger.

quote: The Internet

These & other ideas everyone mentioned sound great... atleast to try.

Other possible ideas:

Increasing the speed of non-wind naval units
Banannas for Jungles (start position balance)
Oasis for Desert (start position balance)
Grasslands cannot be mined (maybe, untested)
Stock Exchange (why did they take this out?)
Supermarkets/Refrigeration (why did they take this out?)
Hollywood (late huge culture boost) - anyone got a picture of Marilyn?
More possible upgrades for units (so the AI builds less obsolete units)

	12-12-2001 10:49									#29
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The only problem I am having getting back into 'official public' modding is the fact that more patches are probably on the way, and with each patch, we basically have to recreate our mods.

I am doing some personal stuff right now- and am incorporating some of the other great mod ideas being shared by you other modders- but I am reluctant to post anything new for public use at this time because of the state of flux CivIII is in currently.

However-- when the bug fixing patches are all but done, it would be good to review the game and see if the mod community at large will work together to create a mod that WE THE GAMERS want- a mod that will make CivIII a game we want to play.

	12-12-2001 12:10									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm not sure this can be done - yet. But here's a good tech suggestion:

Media
Industrial Age tech. Lets you do something with defection and propaganda resistance. In some mods already.

Mass Media (or integrated media)
A modern tech that grants access to a Wonder - CNN! ...or whatever won't get us sued. Basically, a globally-integrated system of information gathering that gives your civilization free, permanent, uncapturable spies (think Empath Guild in SMAC). Maybe some other benefits too, like culture. The tech itself could actually make propaganda BETTER (and we should probably remove democracy's immunity to it... does that even make sense?), so we could try paying to steal cities for real this time.

EDIT: Maybe the "Global Network" wonder would make an enemy civ have a chance to defy its leader and elect you UN Sec-General? That might be interesting - so-and-so went for the UN for a cheap win, but YOU put TVs in every home and touted YOUR candidate!

Small-Scale Warfare
Another modern tech. Gives you Special Forces, an upgrade to Marines and/or Paratroopers. High attack (hits hard and fast), low defense (represents a small group of commadoes, so it isn't capable of fighting off an entire tank battalion if caught). Attacks from transports and can airdrop. What I wish I could see with this is the Spec. Forces units being like privateers, yet somehow NOT, if you understand my meaning... something to the extent of revealing their nationality if attacked or spied-upon (having an active spy in the enemy civ would allow you to ID spec forces right away, making espionage more useful). There might be other consequences as well, but it's hard to actually do anything too complex in the editor - that I know how to do. I'd just say make 'em unidentifiable but that would make them TOO strong.

Biowarfare
Branches from Genetics. Lets you build a small wonder, the Biotech Facility, which lets spies unleash devastating attacks on cities, slaughtering population and causing chaos in cities all over the empire (not ALL of them, but not just in one - c'mon, unrest because of terrorism in NYC didn't mean the rest of us were just chugging along, Sept. 11 screwed up the whole damn country). Downside is, of course, a fair chance of getting caught and a serious atrocity to this. In addition, I was thinking of adding to it...

Eugenia
I'm not sure that's even a word, but it's basically an idea I had. New government types are incredibly easy to add, and we kinda don't have any new governments after Communism, why not add some 'future society' choices, or rather, potential modern societies which don't YET exist - but might? A Eugenic society believes in selective breeding and euthanasia, and the use of genetics to weed out population. They use forced labor ("Yeah, a temple? Just round up the 10,000 least genetically-useful citizens and work them to death, then recycle the parts into composite fibers"), giving us yet another pop-rush government, but produce fewer happy citizens and culture (the culture is sterile and highly regulated), can't support units and have high war weariness (the citizenry has no reason to care about the 'inferior' civilizations outside their little isolationist country, so militaries should be small, efficient, and defensive). Corruption is moderate (those damn genetically inferiors keep pulling down our efficiency!), and they're susceptible to propaganda and unrest-defections (people just want to be free!). Finally, give them depotism's food penalties (slower, more regulated growth), but commerce bonuses (highly efficient work - once you get past all those worthless types). It'd be hard to make it preferable to communism, possibly, unless communism were toned down... but the modern age governments (say 1 or 2 of them) would have tons of advantages and disadvantages to really shake up playing styles. Give AI civs preferences for this, that, and the other, and maybe things will really diverge in the modern age... maybe.

Well, that was long winded, complicated, and probably unworkable. I'm done.