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Joe R. Golowka is offline Joe R. Golowka
Chieftain
Earth, Sol System, Milky Way
Jul 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 00:46
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War on Afghanistan Kills as many as 9-11 Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Summary:3,500 Civilians Killed in Afghanistan by U.S. Bombs. University of New Hampshire Economics Professor Releases Study of Civilian Casualties in Afghanistan Monday Morning on Democracy Now! Radio/TV Show

At least 3500 Afghani Civilians KIlled by US Bombs!

DURHAM, NEW HAMPSHIRE - December 10 - More than 3,500 civilians have been killed in Afghanistan by U.S. bombs, according to a study to be released December 10 by Marc W. Herold, Professor of Economics, International Relations, and Women's Studies at the University of New Hampshire. Professor Herold will announce his findings on Monday, December 10 in a discussion with award-winning journalist, Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! in Exile's War and Peace Report http://www.democracynow.org

**Link to the DN! Radio Report: http://stream.realimpact.org/rihurl...1210.ra&start=\"9:53.7\"

Professor Herold has been gathering data on civilian casualties since October 7 by culling information from news agencies, major newspapers, and first-hand
accounts. "I decided to do the study because I suspected that the modern weaponrywas not what it was advertised to be. I was concerned that there
would be significant civilian casualties caused by the bombing, and I was able to find some mention of casualties in the foreign press but almost nothing in the U.S. press," said Herold.

Herold's data is available at: http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mwherold/ (On MS Excel spread sheet format) or
MS Word Format: http://www.democracynow.org/thndtrmb.doc

For each day since October 7, when the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan began, he lists the number of casualties, location, type of weapon used, and source(s)
of information. Following are several examples from his daily calculations:

* On October 11, two U.S. jets bombed the mountain village of Karam, comprised of 60 mud houses, during dinner and evening prayer time, killing
100-160 people. Sources: DAWN, (English language Pakistani daily newspaper), the Guardian of London, the Independent, International Herald Tribune, the
Scotsman, the Observer, and the BBC News.

* On October 13, in the early morning, an F-18 dropped 2,000 lb. JDAM bombs on the Qila Meer Abas neighborhood, 2 kms. South of the Kabul airport,
killing four people. Sources: Afghan Islamic Press, Los Angeles Times, Frontier Post, Pakistan Observer, the Guardian of London, and the BBC News.

* On October 31, in a pre-dawn raid, an F-18 dropped a 2,000 lb. JDAM bomb on a Red Crescent clinic, killing 15 - 25 people. Sources: DAWN, the Times of London, the Independent, the Guardian, Reuters, Associated Press, and Agence France Presse.

Professor Herold has sought whenever possible to cross-corroborate accounts of civilian casualties. He relied upon British, Canadian, and Australian
newspapers; Indian newspapers, especially The Times of India; three Pakistani daily newspapers; the Singapore News; Afghan Islamic Press; Agence France
Press; Pakistan News Service; Reuters; BBC News Online; Al Jazeera; and a variety of other reputable sources, including the United Nations and other
relief agencies.

The Pentagon has repeatedly denied reports of civilian casualties in Afghanistan, and most U.S. media outlets have qualified their reports of casualties with the statement "could not be independently confirmed." But Professor Herold has been able to confirm the number of casualties and has found that the number is climbing toward 4,000. "People have to know that there is a human cost to war, and that this is a war with thousands of casualties," said Herold. "These were poor people to begin with, and, on top of that, they had absolutely nothing to do with the events of September 11."

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 00:48
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And?

Dis is offline Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 00:56 Visit Dis's homepage!
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good we accomplished our objective then

revenge is a dish best served cold.

I was kidding of course

drake is offline drake
King
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 00:58 Visit drake's homepage!
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"dozens of casualties"
"50-200 casualties"
"countless casualties"
"5-25 casualties"

I am overwhelmed by the accuracy of some of these reports!

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
Emperor
But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:03
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Come on, admit it, your a Che DL, right?

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:04
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Granted, any loss of civ. lives is not good. I'd hate to think what the numbers would be if we weren't concerned about that.

But a few questions.

1. Were these all really civilians. (I would be also interested in seeing the number of combatants killed.)

2. How many of these deaths were do to faulty targeting, malfunctions, or resulted from baiting by the Taliban. (i.e. useing civilians as human shields when hiding their military equipment.

3. Since I'm at work, I can't download the specifics.
And more summaries? The examples listed don't seem to account for anywhere near that many.

RAH

Faboba is offline Faboba
King
Scotland. I can't be more specific else they'll find me.
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:09 Visit Faboba's homepage!
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Who is it said; 'war is the greatest form of birth control' ?

Goingonit is offline Goingonit
Warlord
Toronto, Canada - AECCP member
Apr 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62


Come on, admit it, your a Che DL, right?



Worse, he's the webmaster of the Marxist-Humanist Forum Homepage.

drake is offline drake
King
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:10 Visit drake's homepage!
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Suffering from ads?

Don't worry about the checking the references. Its from a totally extreme left site for kids that need something to be angry about.

Don't ask joe questions about the validity of the sources, or what the numbers actually mean. That would entail him having to do something other than regurgitating what his lefty web sites tell him!

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
Emperor
But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
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  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Goingonit


Worse, he's the webmaster of the Marxist-Humanist Forum Homepage.

You serious?

Yeah, from his posts so far, it would fit.

Hail the heros of Oktober!

Long live the prolatariat!

Powerer to the people!

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:23 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
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3000 innocent Americans killed -> huge outcry
3500 innocent Afghans killed -> nobody cares

3000 dead Americans = wrong
3500 dead Afgans = wrong

Bush and others: wrong+wrong=right


Sad


After hearing this I guess I'm gonna donate yet another months salary to the Afghan refugees. Can anyone recommend a good aid agency (besides the International Red Cross, where my last donation went)?

drake is offline drake
King
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:27 Visit drake's homepage!
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3000 innocent Americans killed -> verified
3500 innocent Afghans killed -> not verified

RUFFHAUS 8 is offline RUFFHAUS 8
King
The Old Dominion
Jan 2000
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  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:30 Visit RUFFHAUS 8's homepage!
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Payback's a b!tch, ain't it?

Last edited by RUFFHAUS 8 on 12-12-2001 at 01:38

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:30 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
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the number of dead americans isnt verified either, since the number is still dropping. it started at 6500, now it's already at 3000.

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:31 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
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quote:
Payback's a *****, ain't it?


like I said, many believe wrong+wrong equals right.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark L
3000 innocent Americans killed -> huge outcry
3500 innocent Afghans killed -> nobody cares


War isn't a clean affair and innocents will suffer in any conflict, Mark L. To think it can be otherwise is to be hopelessly out of touch with reality.


quote:
Can anyone recommend a good aid agency (besides the International Red Cross, where my last donation went)?


This might be a good place to start your search: http://www.gospelcom.net/ia/giving/frames/gift.htm

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:37
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A good point Mark. (It never pleases me to say that)

The actual number keeps going down. After 3 months of exhaustive checking and crosschecking lists and examining actual remains, the number is coming down and is hopefully more acurate.

I guess the lesson here is that we shouldn't believe any quick assessments and should give considerable time for these types of numbers to be verified. The actual numbers could be dramatically lower.

Thanks for that reminder Mark.

RAH

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:38 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
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quote:
War isn't a clean affair and innocents will suffer in any conflict, Mark L.


The 3000 americans are victims of the war as well. So what's the difference?

quote:
This might be a good place to start your search: http://www.gospelcom.net/ia/giving/frames/gift.htm


Thanks

Saint Marcus is offline Saint Marcus
King
Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:41 Visit Saint Marcus's homepage!
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quote:
Thanks for that reminder Mark.


Merci

orange is offline orange
Emperor
It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:41 Visit orange's homepage!
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Is this only civilian casualties? I'm getting mixed messages about what the data refers to.

drake is offline drake
King
Maine, US
Oct 2000
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  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:41 Visit drake's homepage!
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quote:
the number of dead americans isnt verified either, since the number is still dropping. it started at 6500, now it's already at 3000.


And you don't think this leftist, obviously anti-US website might be exaggerating a tad too mark?

I'm sure civilians died, and it sucks. It does. But this site referenced, suggests civilians were directly targeted. Which is utter crap.

If taliban set up shop within civilian populations, and did nothing to evacuate the civilians in surrounding areas, who really is to blame? The evacuation of civilian populations in areas that are potential targets is the common sense thing to do, wouldn't you think?

This war was a war that needed to be fought, one way or another, by us, britain or whoever. And no matter who conducted the lead strikes, there would have been civilian casualties. It is my guess, that since US military technology is the most sophisticated in the world, that it did better at minimizing civilian deaths than any other country could have. What do you think?

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:41 Visit Dis's homepage!
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uhh am I missing something here?

doesn't anyone see a difference between 3000 dead americans and 3000 dead afghans? No I'm not talking about race, dont' jump to conclusion.

I'm talking about the way they were killed. 3000 were killed intentionally, 3000 were killed accidently.

I like to think if we really wanted to kill innocent afghans we could have surpassed the 1 million persons mark by now.

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
Emperor
But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by rah
A good point Mark. (It never pleases me to say that)

To bad you said that Rah, because the truth is the number of still missing is 3,000+, and the number of dead recovered is 1500.

Kyle is offline Kyle
Prince
Evil and I'm also a Capitalist
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:46
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Tired of ads?

I'm not denying or accepting these numbers, but I do know that Dawn is not a good source for anything. They regularly use OP/Ed pieces as though they were news articles and throw opinion and bias in most of their articles.

RUFFHAUS 8 is offline RUFFHAUS 8
King
The Old Dominion
Jan 2000
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Angry  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:47 Visit RUFFHAUS 8's homepage!
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No, Mark L. It isn't like you said at all, you pompous ass!

This isn't about making things "right." No one ever said that. This is about kiling the bastards that did this in the first place and making sure that they never do it again.

Maybe that turn the other cheek crap flies in whatever commie-paradise (must be France) you call home, but it doesn't here. Well, now that Bubba's threw bangin' Monica, Paula, and Kathleen, it doesn't fly here anymore.

drake is offline drake
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Maine, US
Oct 2000
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  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:49 Visit drake's homepage!
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quote:
I like to think if we really wanted to kill innocent afghans we could have surpassed the 1 million persons mark by now.


Well of course. Couldve killed all of em. Easy. We also could have refused to send in hundreds of millions of dollars in food aid.

If the US was after civilians, they would all be history. But it wasn't. Never was.

quote:
I'm talking about the way they were killed. 3000 were killed intentionally, 3000 were killed accidently.


Murder1 and manslaughter are two very different things yes.

orange is offline orange
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  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:58 Visit orange's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
uhh am I missing something here?

doesn't anyone see a difference between 3000 dead americans and 3000 dead afghans? No I'm not talking about race, dont' jump to conclusion.

I'm talking about the way they were killed. 3000 were killed intentionally, 3000 were killed accidently.

I like to think if we really wanted to kill innocent afghans we could have surpassed the 1 million persons mark by now.


I think 3,000 accidental death's is embarassing for a nation that is as technologically advanced as we're supposed to be. If we're upset at the innocent deaths of the WTC victims, then we should be just as upset at the deaths of innocent Afghans.

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:58 Visit Stefu's homepage!
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quote:
quote from the article
Al Jazeera; and a variety of other reputable sources




Yes, it's a blatant cut-and-paste misquoting, but still rather illuminative.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:16
  Old Post 12-12-2001 01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark L
The 3000 americans are victims of the war as well. So what's the difference?


A) Not all of them were Americans.

B) We have the ability to end the organization responsible for the purposeful murder of thousands of civilians.



quote:
Thanks


Welcome.

I sure wish I got paid enough that I'd be able to give up an entire month's pay to what I considered a worthy cause.

orange is offline orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
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  Old Post 12-12-2001 02:00 Visit orange's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by RUFFHAUS 8
No, Mark L. It isn't like you said at all, you pompous ass!

This isn't about making things "right." No one ever said that. This is about kiling the bastards that did this in the first place and making sure that they never do it again.

Maybe that turn the other cheek crap flies in whatever commie-paradise (must be France) you call home, but it doesn't here. Well, now that Bubba's threw bangin' Monica, Paula, and Kathleen, it doesn't fly here anymore.


MarkL is Dutch.

The bastards that did this are already dead. The majority of the bastards that funded them are not dead yet. I'd say we probably have killed more innocent Afghans in this war than Taliban or terrorist supporters.

 
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