15-12-2001 04:35									#91
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Ramo -

quote: "Eminent domain" is a good example of the damage the Courts can do to your rights. It became a tool of railroad and canal companies to steal farmers' lands through the gov't.

Yup, just like zoning laws.

Ted -

quote: Having no morals? Never claimed to believe in morality? I see no difference.

I had a smilie after that, and you never did claim to believe in morality - a statement of fact.

quote: Liar! Pants on Fire!!! Hypocrite!!! Deceiter!!! Nah nah nah-nah nah!!!

Someone needs a spanking, or did your parents give you "time-outs"?

quote: Face it Berzerker you tried to play us up and I called you on it.

I'm already aware you're calling me a liar, I just prefer you do it to my face.

quote: Hitting the reply button and using direct quotes more than the rest of us doesn't prove your innocence.

Nor does it prove your "mindreading" abilities.

quote: Get laid, get in a fight, lift weights, do SOMETHING with all that rage.

I'm marriedw/children which is why I have my suspicions about who I'm dealing with, and I do lift weights but I don't fight with people unless they call me a liar to my face, which is why it is safer for you to accuse me of lying from behind a computer.

quote: But hey if you want to support the actions of a murdering extremist, by all means, go for it.

I suggest you take your own "advice" and do a little more research, near the end of page 2 I apologised for originally posting false information.

quote: But I like how in your first post you referred to him as an "author." Just like Hitler was a "painter."

He wrote a book that was published and sold quite well, that makes him an author.

quote: Ya caint truss tha gubment!!!

Only a fool would say you can trust the government. I suggest you walk up to someone on the street and call them a liar for failing to provide information you want, hypocrite. In case it has escaped your attention, it was me who posted the link to the Az Republic article, not you. And it was me who went to Free Republic to find out more information, not you, so you didn't do anything but call me a liar. Ya'll come see us sometime

	15-12-2001 05:36									#92
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Um, berz how is people refusing to pay taxes to the point of death going to help anything? It gets them killed, it gets cops killed, and it doesn't help the libertarian movement any. So since a bunch of people get ****ed and nobody gets helps its pretty cut 'n dry immorality.

	15-12-2001 06:22									#93
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Boshko -

quote: Um, berz how is people refusing to pay taxes to the point of death going to help anything?

It won't as long as a large majority remain indifferent to what they are doing to others.

quote: It gets them killed, it gets cops killed, and it doesn't help the libertarian movement any.

All true, but when someone is killed for not paying taxes (not the Cooper case), I will point out that there is no substantive difference between the current government and the Mafia. Just playing along with the fiction that government turns immoral acts into moral acts won't change minds.

quote: So since a bunch of people get ****ed and nobody gets helps its pretty cut 'n dry immorality.

I'd say legalized robbery is already immoral. I guess it all depends on how much advocates of these forms of taxation want other people's money. If they are willing to have others killed or put in cages for not handing over their money, telling them they've done nothing wrong won't promote morality.

	15-12-2001 13:11									#94
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"I will point out that there is no substantive difference between the current government and the Mafia...I'd say legalized robbery is already immoral"
Which is all fairly irrelevant unless shooting at people who try make you pay taxes actually accomplishes anything. Otherwise its little better than random murder since the results are just the same.

Also the "large majority remain indifferent" will always remain indifferent as long as capitalist (or at least the current version of it) exists. With an economic system what results in large scale inequalities, what with human nature being what it is, you're either going to have a poor majority or a rich minority taking control and acting in an authoritarian manner. You need an egalitarian economic system for there to be libertarianism.

	15-12-2001 16:08									#95
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Hey Berzerker,

Should we call you the "pot" or "the kettle?"

You say you're pissed about being called a liar but call me a liar.

You say it's weak to spout off insults behind a computer, yet you spout off insults behind a computer.

I'd say either the drugs haven't washed out of your system or you have serious issues.

Liar! Hypocrite!!! Extremist!!!

-Mindreader Ted Striker

	15-12-2001 17:38									#96
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quote: Can you produce the contract upon which he agreed to owe us this money?

Constitution. And if he or anyone else doesn't acknowledge it he should get the **** out of the country. Otherwise it will become anarchy, since anyone can do anything.

	16-12-2001 08:38									#97
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Boshko -

quote: Also the "large majority remain indifferent" will always remain indifferent as long as capitalist (or at least the current version of it) exists. With an economic system what results in large scale inequalities, what with human nature being what it is, you're either going to have a poor majority or a rich minority taking control and acting in an authoritarian manner. You need an egalitarian economic system for there to be libertarianism.

First, capitalism does not guarantee a poor majority and the point of capitalism - the marketplace - is to keep one group from "taking control". Once a group takes control, it is no longer capitalism as you pointed out, but a system of favoritism or even authoritarianism. And this human nature leaning toward authoritarianism will occur under any economic system. And to achieve libertarianism via a forced egalitarianism is contradictory. How do you plan on preventing intelligent inventors from not becoming wealthy while respecting their freedom? Besides, what you seem to be saying is that the poor will use violence via government to get what they want if it is not handed over "voluntarily". Do you condone that?

MarkL -

quote: Constitution. And if he or anyone else doesn't acknowledge it he should get the **** out of the country. Otherwise it will become anarchy, since anyone can do anything.

The Constitution does not empower Congress to "re-distribute" wealth. It has specific, enumerated powers for Congress, not unlimited powers. Why bother enumerating certain powers if the Framers actually meant to give Congress whatever power it wants? Besides, a contract agreed to by a minority 210 years ago cannot oblige living peoples to act any more than your father can oblige you to be a slave by virtue of his contracts.

Ted -

quote: Should we call you the "pot" or "the kettle?"

Since you are the only one calling me a liar and a hypocrite, maybe you should change that question to reflect reality.

quote: You say you're pissed about being called a liar but call me a liar.

I called you a liar? Where? Is this why you don't use quotes?

quote: You say it's weak to spout off insults behind a computer, yet you spout off insults behind a computer.

I said it was hypocritical. And since you have such a problem following logic, I'll explain why again: if you walked up to a stranger and engaged them in a conversation, you wouldn't start calling them a liar for not having information you wanted. But this is exactly what you've done in this thread, that's why you are guilty of hypocrisy. And your counter-charge of hypocrisy is invalid because it would not be hypocritical for the stranger you've accused of lying to insult you back which is what I have done. Try to think more about your arguments...

quote: I'd say either the drugs haven't washed out of your system or you have serious issues.

My parents and whatever drugs I have used has left me with more intelligence than your parents left you.

quote: Hitting the reply button and using direct quotes more than the rest of us doesn't prove your innocence

quote: Liar! Hypocrite!!! Extremist!!!

Nor does repeating unsupported allegations make them true. Btw, are you an extremist for opposing a mugger? If not, why are you an extremist for opposing muggers who use government to do their stealing? Oh, because the majority agrees with that kind of stealing?
So, would you object to what the Nazis did if the majority supported them?

quote: -Mindreader Ted Striker

Unfortunately for you, reading minds has no value without the ability to comprehend what you're reading. But at least you can take comfort in the knowledge you won't get your teeth kicked in by a computer screen, just don't let that reality lead you to believe you can get away with your obnoxious behavior when facing someone.

	16-12-2001 20:02									#98
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quote: The Constitution does not empower Congress to "re-distribute" wealth.

I may not be an American, but I think that even the American constitution states that the governement has the right to levy taxes from it's citizens.

	16-12-2001 20:10									#99
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Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Again, I'm not an American and may not fully understand the meaning of these sections in the US constitution. But as I'm reading it, the governement can levy taxes, and can seize personal belongings "upon probable cause", which there was in this case since the guy violated the law. Feel free to correct me though.

	16-12-2001 22:58									#100
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MarkL -

quote: I may not be an American, but I think that even the American constitution states that the governement has the right to levy taxes from it's citizens. Amendment XVI The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

A power to tax is not a power to spend. The Constitution spells out what the Congress can spend money on; this amendment did not create any new power to spend. There simply is no power to spend money on programs designed to transfer money among the citizenry such as Social Security, welfare, etc... Now, if the states want to have programs that serve these purposes, then thay may do so if allowed by their respective state constitutions.

quote: Again, I'm not an American and may not fully understand the meaning of these sections in the US constitution. But as I'm reading it, the governement can levy taxes, and can seize personal belongings "upon probable cause", which there was in this case since the guy violated the law. Feel free to correct me though.

First, it wasn't the federal government (as far as I can see) that was involved in this incident. It was a local matter having to do with a different issue. My opening post was inaccurate regarding taxes being the issue. Second, the Constitution is, among other things, a list of powers or functions to be exercised or carried out by the Congress which is the only branch of the federal government given the power to tax and spend. It is these powers that Congress may spend our money on, not on powers that do not appear in the Constitution.

Maybe the 10th Amendment will help clear this up a bit:

"The powers not delegated to the United States (federal government) by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

This means the Congress has only those powers "delegated" by - enumerated in - the Constitution. All other powers are reserved for the states and the people unless prohibited by the Constitution. Congress can spend money only to exercise those powers delegated by the Constitution - powers few in number.

	17-12-2001 00:50									#101
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Oh come on Berzerker!

You are a hypocrite for calling me a hypocrite for calling you a hypocrite.

Hypocrite!!!!

Amphetamines, anyone?



-Mindreader and Non-liar/Hypocrite Ted Striker

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	17-12-2001 15:33									#102
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Ted -

quote: You are a hypocrite for calling me a hypocrite for calling you a hypocrite.

You really need to find softer surfaces to sit on, you're bruising your brain on those hard chairs at your school.

quote: Amphetamines, anyone?

How about you? I understand it helps children with ADD. You remind me of the small child who repeatedly bangs his head against the wall while a parent tries to talk sense into him.

quote: -Mindreader and Non-liar/Hypocrite Ted Striker

Glad to see you've finally admitted you are a hypocrite