13-12-2001 12:14									#1
	Beelining in the Industrial Age Tired of ads?

Just a quick question, what do people tend to shoot for first in the Industrial Age? Steam Power for Railroads and Industrialization for Factories? Replaceable Parts for Infantry and 2x worker speed? And is Sanitation's pop-limit-lifting important enough to justify researching it first if no one else has it?

Or do you just click "motorized transportation" and check back when tanks come around?

	13-12-2001 17:18									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

I generally run:

Steam Power: Reveals Coal, allows significant production boost from railroads and is on the short path to Replaceable Parts.

Then Electricity (Irrigate anywhere) and Replacable Parts (Double worker speed, artillery, Rubber and Infantry).

With those techs in the bag, I usually run for Industrialisation, followed by Medicine/Scientific Method (for Darwin).

I've taken to avoiding Sanitation until quite late in the Industrial era. The pollution generated by huge cities is far too much of an annoyance to deal with until I'm close to Mass Transits.

	13-12-2001 17:34									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I am generally inclined to go for steam engine and replaceable parts. Then sanitation. You can cope with the pollution then with double speed workers if you field a large number of them. Electronics is fairly important for the Hoover Dam, once you have factories from industrialisation. Obviously latter ones like flight and motorised transportation are very nice for the units they provide.

	13-12-2001 18:06									#4
	Tired of ads?

Kinda depends on what game you're playing. In a small map game, or if you're running OCC, then Sanitation is important since you have a small number of cities. If you have a ton of cities, then you might as well research other stuff.

I agree that Steam Power should be done quickly, if for no other reason that being able to see the coal.

	13-12-2001 18:42									#5
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Steam Power. You need to know where the coal is ASAP. Also the benefits of Railroads are too important to ignore.

	13-12-2001 18:50									#6
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Lately I've been researching steam power first, then industrialization (to try to beat the AI getting the suffrage wonder and to get factories in place) then electricity then replaceable parts. Then I go for medicine or sanitation.


I won't get into any debates about the importance of getting the suffrage wonder. Many here on the boards tend to not think that most of the wonders in this game have been toned down from previous versions of civ that they don't matter anymore. Actually, if you want the other civs in the game to respect your own civ more than the more wonders you can build, hence the greater the culture value of your civ, the more likely you will be able to absorb enemy cities without having to fire a shot. I tend to build wonders as close to the borders as possible so that the local cultural influence of my cities can bring a neighboring enemy city into the fold.

The decision to then pursue replaceable parts on the tech tree is based soley on the particular game situation. If I'm at war than my main concern is getting artillery and infantry to conduct a better defense. I'm not too worried about the boost in worker production at this point if I'm at war.

If there is peace in the world then I go for sanitation to get my cities pops up there by reducing the support costs for my units. (I tend to use despotism, monarchy, and communism for govts. and nothing else. Just my game style.)

Keep in mind that pollution becomes a problem with factories and high pop levels. This is also easily solved by employing worker battalions whose primary purpose is to clean the orange goo in between building roads/railroads.

I've found that if you don't resort to extreme measures than keeping up with the AI is difficult. This could just be my playing style and you may have your own preferences but I've found this method very helpful in my games.

Best of luck to you all and keep on gaming!

	14-12-2001 00:07									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

A point on Universal Suffrage... You can beat the AI to it without even having the tech. Just start building any other wonder (including a Palace) and then switch when you finally do get the tech. What matters is when you start on your proxy wonder, not when you research the tech.

I have also noted that the increase in production from factories is more imporant than the increase in production from extra population/hospitals.

My Line:

Steam Power
Electricity
Replaceable Parts
Industrialization
Corporation
Refining
Medicine
Sanitation
blah blah blah...

Notably, I press for refining fairly early so that I can find and take some oil if I need to. I never get Nationalism or any of the techs that follow it because I can wage war very effectively under Democracy, and I'll get the techs through a peace treaty anyway once my Infantry/artillery assault wipes out the poor Oil-holder.

	14-12-2001 00:29									#8
	My research in Ind. Era Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Starting assumption is that I'm a scientific civ - if so, I ALWAYS get nationalism as the "free" tech.

1) Steam Power
2) Industrialization
3) Medicine
4) Scientific Method (Theory of Ev.)
5) Electicity
6) Replaceable Parts
7) Atomic Theory
8) Electronics (Hoover, baby)
9) Corporation
10) Refining
11) the rest

-Arrian

	14-12-2001 00:40									#9
	Got spare money?

Hi,


Mr. Weldon I noticed that you made a statement about waging successful war under democracy. I was wondering if you could share with us some of your tactics for doing so as I have a hard time waging war under democracy. That is why I always tend to stay in either monarchy or communism.

Anyway any help would be appreciated.

	14-12-2001 00:54									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

While I'm not David Weldon I also will state that I wage war as a Democracy.

For me the key is in my tax rates. Crank your entertainment budget up to 20-30% and your cities will do okay. Granted it hurts, but 6 turns lost to Anarchy to move to a war-time government and then another 6 to move back are simply unacceptable costs. To beat that problem I'll even sack 50% of my gold into luxuries if I can't arrange peace.

Beyond that . . .. . . well, I'm kind of fanatical about culture, and most of my culture comes from the masses of religious buildings I construct. I'm a big believer in Temples, Cathedrals, and Colloseums.

I also believe in heavy luxury trading combined with Marketplaces.

	14-12-2001 00:58									#11
	War in democracy Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I've never had all that much trouble. They keys:

Sistine Chapel
Bach's Cathedral
Universal Sufferage
Luxury resources + marketplaces
Police Stations
Luxury spending, if necessary.

Usually, I can sustain a war for quite some time with 4-5 lux resources, the above wonders, and 10-20% luxury spending (start at 0 or 10% and end up 20%... if it really drags, I do sometimes end up at 40% luxuries). This is on Monarch.

-Arrian

	14-12-2001 01:21									#12
	Tired of ads?

There goes absimiliard agreeing with me again...

The happiness of your citizens is obviously important because it allows you to withstand war-weariness once it sets in. This seems to happen about 15-20 turns after war is declared. The key to my success, however, has nothing to do with this.

I think there are three things that I do that I think help:

1) Keep the wars short. Grab (actually I raze 'n rebuild) 4-5 cities in as many turns and then declare peace. Remember that all you need is a slight advantage to ensure victory. I will also sometimes raze 2-3 core cities of an opponent and not make any attempt to occupy the territory they leave open. This just devastates any civ.

I don't generally try to take over the world, I just dominate and control it (much like America...).

2) Don't take casualties. Use lots of artillery and fast units.

3) Keep most of your units in your own territory. This means taking a new city in the same turn (or at most the next turn) as you move next to it.

I'm also a "perfectionist" player with regards to my core cities, they always produce all possible city improvements before turning to military production. As a result I normally have a very small but highly mobile and technically advanced military.

I haven't played with the patch, but I hear it makes the AI less willing to declare peace. I don't believe various anecdotal reports about "the AI won't every receive my envoy even after I levelled all but one of his cities!". If that kind of thing really happens, there must be mitigating circumstances like a history of going back on previous deals or something.

	14-12-2001 02:30									#13
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Thank you gentlemen for all your input. I'll try some your tactics for myself. Maybe now I can play a game as the Americans without using communism as their form of government!

	14-12-2001 02:44									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by David Weldon There goes absimiliard agreeing with me again... The happiness of your citizens is obviously important because it allows you to withstand war-weariness once it sets in. This seems to happen about 15-20 turns after war is declared. The key to my success, however, has nothing to do with this. I think there are three things that I do that I think help: 1) Keep the wars short. Grab (actually I raze 'n rebuild) 4-5 cities in as many turns and then declare peace. Remember that all you need is a slight advantage to ensure victory. I will also sometimes raze 2-3 core cities of an opponent and not make any attempt to occupy the territory they leave open. This just devastates any civ. I don't generally try to take over the world, I just dominate and control it (much like America...). 2) Don't take casualties. Use lots of artillery and fast units. 3) Keep most of your units in your own territory. This means taking a new city in the same turn (or at most the next turn) as you move next to it. I'm also a "perfectionist" player with regards to my core cities, they always produce all possible city improvements before turning to military production. As a result I normally have a very small but highly mobile and technically advanced military. I haven't played with the patch, but I hear it makes the AI less willing to declare peace. I don't believe various anecdotal reports about "the AI won't every receive my envoy even after I levelled all but one of his cities!". If that kind of thing really happens, there must be mitigating circumstances like a history of going back on previous deals or something.

I'd just like to add that, although it's probably obvious, getting the other guy to declare war on you first is key as well. If you declare war unprovoked in a democracy, you'll probably have a lot of trouble. At least I do.

As for declaring peace, I think you're right about it being historical, rather than just a simple extension. What I've noticed is that sometimes a civ can hate me so much that it'd rather be destroyed than negotiate with me. There must be some sort of thermometer that monitors the AI's blood pressure.

	14-12-2001 06:12									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by jgflg As for declaring peace, I think you're right about it being historical, rather than just a simple extension. What I've noticed is that sometimes a civ can hate me so much that it'd rather be destroyed than negotiate with me. There must be some sort of thermometer that monitors the AI's blood pressure.

Isnt that the truth. In my previous game, the Babs declared war on me, some centuries after i took their capital and other major city. With their 2 remaining cities, i guess they just pumped out bowmen for their revenge attack.

My riflemen couldnt stop laughing

	14-12-2001 06:42									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

my last game I got steam power. Then I went for sanitation/sewer system

and then a beeline for Hoover dam (electronics)

	15-12-2001 00:22									#17
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Industrialization first is what I do.... because then i start on my factories and go for railroads. I am usually in democracy by then so my enemy civs are starting to lag behind in tech -- that's when i come out with a big tech lead. Then I beeline for the hoover dam and trade for sanitation through some means or another (or get the theory of evolution if you have shields/leader to spare).

I think the factories are the key... in democracy the extra production from sanitation population is huge, especially in your core, low corruption cities.

In terms of waging war as a democracy, I've been doing it more and more and I find it perfectly ok if you

1) raise your luxury rate to 30% or higher
2) have marketplaces in big cities to increase the effect of luxury goods

Then you're usually in good shape. Keep the wars short and swift, and in 10 turns you can get 5 extra cities, beat up the AI, and get some tribute along the way. The problem is you don't really want to break the 20 turn peace..... otherwise your people go crazy and really hate you.

	15-12-2001 00:32									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Interesting thoughts on waging war in democracy. I guess there's no two ways around waging 100+ years of war under democracy. Short wars ok but nothing long.

I seem to enjoy prolonged conflicts as long as growth isn't stifled too much. I've found that keeping a weaker AI at war with you keeps them behind on the tech tree. This is great if they are weaker than you but you don't have the manpower yet to completely crush them. There is great joy in watching the AI beg for peace while you say no and continue to pummel him. This is probably why I don't play democracy so often.

But now that I've seen what other people are doing perhaps a little change in game style is in order for me. I'm intrigued by this democracy thing.

	15-12-2001 01:58									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yeah, the whole key to playing as a democracy is to use its strengths, which essentially are: increased commerce, faster workers, less corruption. The first is clearly the reason people choose democracy. It's huge. If you're raking in money, you can afford to set your science rate up high, and maintain a large army. Accordingly, short wars are the way to go. Build up a LARGE, mostly mobile attack force, and hit hard & fast. Knock the AI back on its heels and never let up. It will all be over before the AI knew what hit it. Then settle back into peace.

If you enjoy long, protracted wars, yeah, democracy is just gonna cramp your style.

-Arrian

	15-12-2001 02:28									#20
	re: Industrial age techs Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As far as what techs to go for, it depends mainly on your play style I think. But, personally, I don't like playing a game where the other civs know where resources are before I do, so I always shoot for first Steam Engine. Up until Civ 3, I'd always rush rush rush to get to Darwins Voyage (now Theory of Evolution). Now, since you can't pick the two advancements you want, I tend to hold off on it, in exchange for Industrialization and Refining (Oil). Hospital (ie, sewer system in civ2) doesn't play quite the importance it used to, so Sanitation also falls off to the side as not as important.

The biggest problem I see now with Theory of Evolution is that you get two advancements furthest back on your tech tree. Kind of a reverse evolving if you ask me, but oh well.

So, I usually run for:

1) Steam Engine (Coal)
2) Indus. (Factories) (and build workers to deal with pollution / keep city sizes under/at 12)
3) Refining (Oil)
4) on from there...if you're warring, go for replaceable parts, etc, if not, Scientific Method maybe.

-Rflagg.

	16-12-2001 02:30									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I go for industrialization first, thinking that the infrastructure and wonders I'll be building will be sped along with factories. I can deal with the pollution, the production increase is a big priority.

The rest will depend on my game situation.

	16-12-2001 06:46									#22
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Actually, other than in some fringe cities, with a good enough luxury rate you can wage war that lasts 100 years.... I've done it before

It slows your tech research to a halt, but with enough luxury goods and a good luxury rate, you can do fine. The smaller/fringe cities will suffer because the trade is lost in corruption so the luxury rate isn't going to help much, but it certainly is possible to wage longer than 4 turn wars in democracy. Not that I recommend it, that is....

	16-12-2001 08:44									#23
	Remove this text

I always research steam power first, so i can speed movement, increase production, make the map ugly
Next is industrialisation to increase production again.
Scientific Method is a bit of a bonus, getting me some techs i normally just ignore or trade for later when they are much cheaper.

After this point, i normally beeline for electronics (Hoover Dam), again to increase production.
If im at war, replacable parts gets me good defence, otherwise helps my workers finish railroading/cleaning pollution.

Then its a beeline for tanks.

With my current method i completely skip sanitation until ive researched ecology, so i can avoid the massive amounts of pollution a large population creates. While reducing the pollution i do get (and the associated global warming), my science rate and production suffer due to the lack of large populations. Still experimenting with this.

	16-12-2001 13:11									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

i forgot to mention my last game on a higher level I researched industrialization before beelining to hoover dam. I had to keep my cities production up.

	04-02-2002 05:07									#25
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In regards to becoming republics and democracy, I really think they are good ideas. When I first started playing civ (the original) I was pretty much a war monger. I went despot-monarchy-communism and took over the world, usually, but I couldn't cut it at the emperor level. I used a similar strategy for a while with civ2. Again, kicking ass up to the king level, and though I could survive well enough at emperor/deity due to enhanced diplomacy, I just couldn't win. Then, one day, I said to myself "Those republics and democracies must be there for SOME reason. I guess I'll give it a shot." And boy did it work. My first game was at Prince or something, and I won handily, much quicker than I usually would with my old strategy. So I tried it out at Emperor. Worked like a charm. Same with Deity. Space Race wins. Of course, there's more to it than just becoming a REpublic/Democracy, but it really can help when combined with many of the other great strategies that can be found on these forums.

	04-02-2002 07:53									#26
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While building Theory of Evolution, I backfill on techs. I trade for ones the AI has, then go for whatever's left lowest on the tree. Usually that's espionage, communism, and the corporation. I can usually get those in 4 turns each, if I have to. I'm talking in the turns immediately prior to getting ToE. Then, when ToE comes, I'm after whatever's lowest on the tree and it'll yield the higher ones.

My first priority in the industrial period, like everybody else, is steam. Then I go for industrialization and get a couple of factories built for wonder purposes. I follow that with medicine and sanitation because hospitals are high priority for me.

On waging war as a democracy: It helps if you've had wars with the other civs before, because then they're considered ancestral enemies and war weariness is lower.

I hope I didn't just repeat what somebody else said because I only skimmed the thread.

	05-02-2002 03:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by David Weldon I don't believe various anecdotal reports about "the AI won't every receive my envoy even after I levelled all but one of his cities!". If that kind of thing really happens, there must be mitigating circumstances like a history of going back on previous deals or something.

Believe it, it happens. The only time the AI has fought me to the death though has been when I not only had broken deals with that civilization, but similarly abused other civilizations. You have to really work the AI over to get it to that point.

	06-02-2002 09:09									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thus proving how STUPID and CRAZY the AI really is.

I have to almost exterminate a civ to get them to agree to even a reasonable peace deal.

	06-02-2002 13:08									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Dave: In the Industrial Ages, it happens to me all the time that I have to totally exterminate a civ to end a war. After you've fought with a civ and razed several cities a couple times (and gotten 50+ gold/turn + all their tech for peace), they're not as interested in negotiating peace. I guess that's just the way it goes when civ's are "furious" for almost the entire game.

Now, on techs... For those of you who say they get Industrialization early, I'd be interested in hearing how your typical game goes. I find building factories in the early Industrial Age to be quite useless. Around this time, all my cities are either very new (so they're rushing Temple/Cathedral/Courthouse), or else they have every pre-industrial improvement and are running Wealth. There's very little for my empire to produce before I hit Combustion/Mass Production/Motorized Transport. That's just the way things work. There are no units to build. Workers are slave labor. Each city has 3 Spearmen in Ancient Times. Each city has 2 Musketmen in the Middle Ages. Each city has 1 Infantry in the Industrial Ages. All units are upgraded, so there's nothing to build. My offensive units start to dwindle, as I upgrade from Horsemen to Knights to Cavalry, but I don't need nearly as many Cavalry as I had horsemen since I have a RR network and some Artillary backup (which were upgraded from Cannons which I built in the Middle Ages). There's just nothing to build.

So, the way I generally go is:

1) Steam Power - RR network ASAP.
2) Electricity - RR + irrigation helps your new cities.
3) Replaceable Parts

Replacable parts is a huge milestone for people using all stolen workers, because the double-speed bonus is applied before the half-speed stolen worker penalty (which is rounded down), which makes your workers actually three times faster.

Obviously Infantry is huge, and this lets you wage your final Cavalry wars with limited numbers (hopefully you're not still building Cavalry). Artillary is also where bombardment support becomes highly effective. This final war with your well-supported elite Cavalry should be able to produce a leader quickly to build the Theory of Evolution, which is pretty important, as winning the race to Tanks lets you wipe everybody out pretty easily.

4) Medicine
5) Scientific Method - Theory of Evolution
6) Sanitation

If you get a leader, you'll complete ToE while you're researching Sanitation, which should give you Nationalism + Industrialization. Now you can start factories in those idle size-12 cities (which should be getting their remaining tiles improved by your ultra-fast workers), and when you get Sanitation, you can either switch to Hospital and rush, or rush the Factory then switch to Hospital (depending on how much money and how many size 12's you have). Depending on how successful your war is, you can rush Sufferage with another leader. When the war's over, if you're getting techs every 4 turns, you can disband your remaining Cavalry to build things.

7) Atomic Theory
8) Electronics - Hoover Dam
9) The Corporation
10) Refining - make sure you've got oil (war should be over)
11) Steel
12) Combustion - start Transports, maybe Destroyer escorts
13) Mass Production
14) Motorized Transportation - TANKS!

This is where I mobilize for war and kill everybody. Just load up the transports with tanks & some drafted infantry.

15) Flight - make some Bombers & Airports for kicks
16) Radio - on to Modern Times

Then if there's another strong civ giving you problems, you can get Computers for Mech. Inf to upgrade your Infantry. You need 10 of the 17 Modern advances to build all the spaceship parts.

	07-02-2002 00:10									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

"For those of you who say they get Industrialization early, I'd be interested in hearing how your typical game goes. I find building factories in the early Industrial Age to be quite useless. Around this time, all my cities are either very new (so they're rushing Temple/Cathedral/Courthouse), or else they have every pre-industrial improvement and are running Wealth. There's very little for my empire to produce before I hit Combustion/Mass Production/Motorized Transport."

I will have a core area and possibly an ForbPal area in place when I get industrialization. I will switch the core cities to factory. I may switch a small wonder producer to factory as well. If a city can make a factory in less that 20 turns, it should do so unless it need something vital, like an aquaduct. I call turns like this revolutions. In some of my early games I got to currency slowly and needed cash. When I scored currency, I changed most of my cities to marketplace production and rushed those that were making a lot of money and had some production already going. I also have an industrial revolution, often same deal with other techs, like MotorTrans. So, long story short, I change a lot of cities to make factories and rush a couple in high production areas.

I usually go for medicine and sanitation after industrialization and cities that are at 12 and won't build a factory soon are switched to hospital possibly rushing hospitals, too.

The factory rush cities are set to hospital or other improvements, if any. Ones in low food producing areas can be set to palace, small wonder, or UniSuff. I want all the wonders, of course. After putting in hospitals if no improvements are needed, I usually build defensive units or possibly bombard, with an eye to upgrading upon getting RepParts.

"If you get a leader, you'll complete ToE while you're researching Sanitation, which should give you Nationalism + Industrialization."

Without a leader I pulled atomic theory and electronics from the ToE, while I researched RepParts. This allowed a factory rushed city set to build palace to be switched and complete the Hoover 7 turns after gaining the tech in my current game.

Rubber is common enough that I felt comfortable delaying RepParts, and the workforce was sufficient (a bit slight, but RR was in place, and core areas developed). Further, it was peacetime.