14-12-2001 06:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Natan When you consider the extent of German atrocities, particularly on the Eastern front where most soldiers served at least for a while, it's hard to view German soldiers as just like any others.

Really? The Russians did a hell of a job going west.

	14-12-2001 06:16									#32
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German soldiers had an ideology that made them think that is ok to brutal, cruel, inhumane and they were so.

Most allied soldiers didn't have that ideology (and were the defenders)

	14-12-2001 06:18									#33
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Eh.

Do I have to make a list of every "incident" involving British, American and Russian soldiers for the last 100 years?

	14-12-2001 06:21									#34
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Eh. Do I have to make a list of every "incident" involving British, American and Russian soldiers for the last 100 years?

German soldiers were given orders like "burn up that village" or execute these 500 men. And they carried it out.

There was a distinctive difference between the levels of inhumanity between the two camps. The arian race mentality gave justification for many brutal acts that had saturated around the vast majority of german soldiers who had embraced that ideology.

	14-12-2001 06:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Natan When you consider the extent of German atrocities, particularly on the Eastern front where most soldiers served at least for a while, it's hard to view German soldiers as just like any others.

That's the dilemma. But dead is dead, and before 1933 these were ordinary kids. Of course I wouldn't remember them specifically because I'm not German but their friends/relatives/descendants/fellow countrymen can remember them just because they're dead.

Reminds me of the midrash about the angels rejoycing after the death of the Egyptians in the Red Sea. God says, "My creatures are drowning in the sea, and you sing my praises?"

	14-12-2001 06:40									#36
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What ever did countries like Greece or Serbia do to justify such an attack against them?

I don't know and don't care about the games of British vs Germans vs whoever. What I do know is that we were attacked by two countries without having done anything wrong against them.

Honoring the invaders seems slightly revolting to me at least.

	14-12-2001 06:43									#37
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Honoring the invaders seems slightly revolting to me at least.

We're not asking you to honor them. But the Germans can, as they are their countrymen who have fallen in war. Their acts should be hated, but their lives can be remembered.

	14-12-2001 06:43									#38
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ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

This is something I don't want to think about.......

	14-12-2001 06:44									#39
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Krazyhorse, there were Russian massacres of Germans, but calling them equal is absurd. The German invasion of Russia killed several percentage points of the Russian population excluding military deaths, the same cannot be said of the Russian invasion of Germany.

	14-12-2001 06:46									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit We're not asking you to honor them. But the Germans can, as they are their countrymen who have fallen in war. Their acts should be hated, but their lives can be remembered.

same difference

	14-12-2001 06:48									#41
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 same difference

No it isn't. A life is a life, however bad the people were. Nobody's asking you to like them.

	14-12-2001 06:50									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit No it isn't. A life is a life, however bad the people were. Nobody's asking you to like them.

I don't think you realize. What kind of "rememberance" are you talking about?


"We stand here today to remember the german soldiers who fell in WW2?"

Do you really want Europe to remember them?

	14-12-2001 06:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit That's the dilemma. But dead is dead, and before 1933 these were ordinary kids. Of course I wouldn't remember them specifically because I'm not German but their friends/relatives/descendants/fellow countrymen can remember them just because they're dead.

Good, then they can mourn their dead, but not exalt them as heroes. Their war is a cause for shame, not celebration.

quote: Reminds me of the midrash about the angels rejoycing after the death of the Egyptians in the Red Sea. God says, "My creatures are drowning in the sea, and you sing my praises?"

If you want to make this a tanakh dispute, let me mention that az yashir is still right there in shemos. "Amar oyev, erdof asig achalek shalal, timlaemo nafshi, arik charbi, toreshemo yadi. . . . yemincha hashem nedari bekoach, yemincha hashem tiratz oyev" ("the enemy said: I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide spoils, he was satisfy my soul, I will dry my sword and my hand shall impoversh him . . . they right hand, O Lord, does gloriously, they right hand, O Lord, smashes the enemy.") - Exodus 15:6

	14-12-2001 06:56									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Good, then they can mourn their dead, but not exalt them as heroes. Their war is a cause for shame, not celebration.

Exactly.

quote: If you want to make this a tanakh dispute, let me mention that az yashir is still right there in shemos. "Amar oyev, erdof asig achalek shalal, timlaemo nafshi, arik charbi, toreshemo yadi. . . . yemincha hashem nedari bekoach, yemincha hashem tiratz oyev" ("the enemy said: I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide spoils, he was satisfy my soul, I will dry my sword and my hand shall impoversh him . . . they right hand, O Lord, does gloriously, they right hand, O Lord, smashes the enemy.") - Exodus 15:6

But the point of the midrash is that though the Lord destroys the enemy, he isn't happy about it.

And I wasn't intending to drive the discussion this way. I found the story appropriate, I didn't want to use it to introduce a biblical angle into this discussion.

	14-12-2001 06:59									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Good, then they can mourn their dead, but not exalt them as heroes.

BAH! I am going to say something really wicked. But I won't.

	14-12-2001 07:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Exactly.

Okay, so you agree that the German government shouldn't be rewarding these people for their service.

quote: But the point of the midrash is that though the Lord destroys the enemy, he isn't happy about it. And I wasn't intending to drive the discussion this way. I found the story appropriate, I didn't want to use it to introduce a biblical angle into this discussion.

Okay, but I'm still going to have to ask Eli to dredge up that website with quotes from various famous ancient and medieval rabbis about the glory of revenge . . .

	14-12-2001 07:37									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Okay, so you agree that the German government shouldn't be rewarding these people for their service.

I do agree.

	14-12-2001 08:08									#48
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i say we nuke every single square foot of japan, korea, and china.

exterminate those billions of people.

i wouldn't have to think about my ethnic history anymore. let it die in ashes.

	14-12-2001 08:29									#49
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are you sick?

quote: i wouldn't have to think about my ethnic history anymore. let it die in ashes.

I don't think I ever saw a more repulsive argument.

	14-12-2001 08:42									#50
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In the mid-'80s, our great President, Ronnie, decided it was time to forgive and forget, and went to lay a wreath at an SS war dead cemetary "because they were victims too."

In a bar in Flint, Michigan, a yet to be famous Michael Moore was hanging around in a bar with his buddies, and they were complaining about this. After all, some of their fathers had fallen fighting these guys. So one of the guys and Mike hopped on a plane to Germany, and just as Ronnie was getting ready to put down the wreath, they unfurled a banner saying that they were there to protest their president laying a wreath at his father's murderer's graves.

Well, the West German police were about to beat them bloody when the press all turned towards them (having been alerted by Mike beforehand they were gonna pull this stunt). Needless to say, Reagan and Kohl were terribly embarrssed by this, as well they should have been.

Never forgive. Never forget. Hunt these SOBs down, even on their death beds and drag their asses to trial to pay before all humanity for their crimes.

	14-12-2001 08:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Never forgive. Never forget.

That's about right. History forgotten is doomed to be repeated.

	14-12-2001 08:49									#52
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory After the War...... Does anybody know why the Japs got off so easy compared to the Germans? Who have been and will be..labeled "Nazi's" and "Murderers" for generations to come....

We tried and hung quite a few Japanese War Criminals after the war, with military tribunalls that accord the defendants somewhat less rights and proctection than the Numremburg Tribunals.

	14-12-2001 08:54									#53
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quote: are you sick? quote: i wouldn't have to think about my ethnic history anymore. let it die in ashes. I don't think I ever saw a more repulsive argument.

sick? perhaps.

i'm tired of discussing this, i so don't want to think about this anymore. everytime i go back to korea, i see the scars that the japanese occupation left in my grandmother's face. every time people ask me where i'm from, i'm pretty much relagated to "chinese"

i'm tired of it all. it would be better for us all if we wiped out the humans from the planet in one big atrocity to end all atrocities.

like how world war 1 was to end all wars.

how joyous, once you think about it. and how sick.

paiktis, were i serious, i'd do it myself. and i'd make sure i was under one of those nuclear warheads. but i'm not serious. this is history, an ugly history, one that japan is willing to forget.

i say we forget much of it too, and just arm ourselves to the teeth in case they try anything else.

we're not going to get any sort of compensation out of them. let them think theire history is all pure and holy, decended from ameratsu. let them think they are blameless, driven to imperialism by the american capitalist dogs. let them think they are the victims.

just know the truth, they were the agressors. keep a gun under the pillow, and shoot them when they try to rape your country again.

	14-12-2001 09:00									#54
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No generation will ever forget.


edit: but on the same time you can't lose faith in humanity. You do have to remain ever vigilant though because nazism can breed again and is never really dead.


And you are what you think, not what your ethnicity is. And can't be responsible for what your ancestors did but for what you are.

I'm sorry for your grandmother. I am afraid I know very little of what happened during WW2 in Asia.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 14-12-2001 at 09:13

	14-12-2001 09:12									#55
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 German soldiers were given orders like "burn up that village" or execute these 500 men. And they carried it out.

Remind anyone else of My Lai?

The Nazis were brutal, evil, sinister. The Japanese committed atrocities that, when contemplated, could drive a decent human being insane. Soviet and Chinese communists starved, executed, and purged millions of civilians.

And we Americans have also committed numerous atrocities in our history. If he hide from them, or minimize them, or ignore them, or claim they never happened, we'll commit the same crimes again and again and again. Never, ever forget.

The truth shall set you free.

	14-12-2001 09:39									#56
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As horrible as My Lai and thousands of other incidents were, My Lai was not an act of policy carried out under orders, unlike, Babi Yar or the Rape of Nanjing. . . . Just don't ask me about the Phoenix Program.

My Lai stands out as the worst single incident, but it was a product of berserker rage, and not a calculated attroctiy calmly carried out by people in full command of their faculties. It's the difference between murder 1 and 2.

	14-12-2001 09:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I don't think you realize. What kind of "rememberance" are you talking about? "We stand here today to remember the german soldiers who fell in WW2?" Do you really want Europe to remember them?

SURE! We can "Never Forget"!


The Japanese at Nanjing mutilated their victims alive. They even raped prepubertal girls by cutting open their vaginas using swords. I think this is what horrified the German missionaries in Nanjing. Remember that before establishing an alliance with Japan, Nazi Germany was quite friendly with China. China bought large amounts of war materials from Germany. Chinese troops were even equipped with German stormtrooper helmets! Picture that in your mind.

	14-12-2001 09:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove SURE! We can "Never Forget"!

And we won't!

By "Do you really want Europe to remember them?" I meant that if we REALLY remember the german soldiers, if the memories become really alive again, (by such a provokative move as honoring/remembering them) then things might get out of hand to several countries against Germany. (like hatred against her re-living).

	14-12-2001 13:50									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith There is a detailed account of this in episode in William L. Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Thrid Reich.

Shirer's book is one of the worst books about World War II I have ever read. Amongst the problems are:

1) He was a journalist.
2) He was terribly opinionated.
3) He didn't know anything about military affairs.
4) He wrote it before a lot of really important information came out about the Third Reich so....
5) It is riddled with errors, especially when it comes to Shirer's opinions and his crappy analysis.

If you are looking for one good book to introduce you the history of the Third Reich don't buy this one. It is famous and long, but it is overrated.

	14-12-2001 14:13									#60
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the rearguard ss and gestapo committing the atrocities? I kinda find it hard to imagine a frontline PzKfW 4 crew getting out to shoot some civilians - they were too busy dodging AT gun fire.