13-12-2001 20:47									#1
	Remembering the Nanjing Massacre Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It was on this day, 64 years ago, that the IJA (Imperial Japanese Army) started a systemic slaughtering of the people of Nanjing, resulting in 250,000 dead by conservative estimates.

	13-12-2001 20:51									#2
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Yes, let us not forget about the Baton death march and Pearl Harbor

50,000 USA and UK PoW's were forced to march hundreds of miles without food or water. Half of them, not suprisingly, died!

	13-12-2001 20:57									#3
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I forgot to mention that the Japanese never gave an apoligy for there atrocities!!!!!!

Nanking was awful!

	13-12-2001 21:16									#4
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Nanjing was horrible. Japan needs to acknowledge this crime against humanity.

	13-12-2001 21:22									#5
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[aside]Is it true that the Japanese actually managed to horrify the Nazis? I'd heard that somewhere but I can't remember if its is true or not.[/aside]

	13-12-2001 21:36									#6
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Dino Doc:
Yes, that is true. Various diplomatic dispatches indicate that the Nazi ambassador to China was horrified by the conduct of Japanese troops in Nanjing and elsewhere, and intervened in an attempt to stop the bloodshed. Unfortunately he was unsuccessful. There is a detailed account of this in episode in William L. Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Thrid Reich.

edit: corrected the cite

	13-12-2001 21:53									#7
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In an incredibly amazing way, John Rabe, a German in Nanjing, sheltered many Chinese from the IJA. He's like a Schindler for the Chinese, but being a German.

The book The Good Man of Nanking is a recount of this.

	13-12-2001 22:16									#8
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After the War......

Does anybody know why the Japs got off so easy compared to the Germans? Who have been and will be..labeled "Nazi's" and "Murderers" for generations to come...even if the current german generation had nothing to do with the actions of the past.

	13-12-2001 22:22									#9
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Yes.
I still like the Japanese though. Not to say that they haven't done absolutely horrible thing.
And it wasn't the bloodshed that horrified the Germans - it was the 'uncivilized' way by which it was carried through.

	13-12-2001 22:26									#10
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IIRC the objection was to the "uncivilized" conduct of IJA troops - ie massive killing of civilians.

	13-12-2001 22:34									#11
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FG/Steve,

Politics.

The US figured that if they really extracted justice from Japan, they'd end up with a weak country that couldn't effectively block the Soviets.

So the US left the system in Japan largely intact, let many key figures off the hook - particularly Hirohito, and pumped money into rebuilding the country.

Oh, by the way, do you know that the US let the head of the infamous Unit 731 off the hook in the hopes of gaining information regarding biological warfare?

	13-12-2001 22:41									#12
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no UR.....I do not. But if you could enlighten me, ide be interested

The japs havent paid once cent to China, UK, America, Holland.....anyone!


But I do know that the German Government has been paying reparations to the Israeli Government for alllllllllllllong time now.

	13-12-2001 23:25									#13
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Truly one of the great tradegies of the 20th century...

	14-12-2001 00:08									#14
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the U.S. felt guilty about committing atrocities against the japanese. that is one of my theories.

my other theory is the U.S. at the time had little regard for chinese people due to them not being white.

But enough of that. It is important to remember this. If the japanese won't teach this in schools, it is all the more important to remember this, so the truth gets out.

	14-12-2001 00:31									#15
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IJA did this pretty much where ever they went. One Japanese soldier said that the first time he killed a civilian it was hard to do. But after his third or fourth one he didn't feel much anymore. Another soldier said that he was actually doing those people a favor by killing them since they were in such misery. (Talking about British soldiers that were forced to march over 150miles through jungle.)

The Germans were only shocked about how the Japanese went about their killings and not the killings themselves. The Germans prefered a more systematic approach.

	14-12-2001 05:08									#16
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Yes, the (seemingly) forgotten massacre. It is a shame that not many people in the West know about it. Also would explain why a strong Japan might make the rest of East Asia a bit uneasy.

	14-12-2001 05:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the U.S. felt guilty about committing atrocities against the japanese. that is one of my theories. my other theory is the U.S. at the time had little regard for chinese people due to them not being white. But enough of that. It is important to remember this. If the japanese won't teach this in schools, it is all the more important to remember this, so the truth gets out.

I doubt this!!!

First of all, isnt it China's duty to demand reparations after the war? Second.....We never committed any atrocities. Oh......unless Hiroshima? That we had to do!


UR: The reason the Emperor wasnt arrested or put on trial was for 2 reasons.

1) The Emperor did not make military/political decisions. That was left to Tojo. (or so I think)

2) MacArthur (god bless him, a true patriot) wanted to use the emperor as a puppet.

	14-12-2001 05:43									#18
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I agree with everything said in this topic so far. It was really shameful when the Japanese prime minister laid a wreath (or did he just threaten to, I can't recall now) at the tomb of war criminals.

	14-12-2001 05:46									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Natan I agree with everything said in this topic so far. It was really shameful when the Japanese prime minister laid a wreath (or did he just threaten to, I can't recall now) at the tomb of war criminals.

Agree.........


Question: Does Germany pay its veterans from World War 2 ? Honor them? Etc.......

I know germany took great pride in there luftwaffe (even today!). As they should of, in that instance.

	14-12-2001 05:48									#20
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I don't see why Germany shouldn't pay and honour the veterans of the regular armed forces during WWII.

	14-12-2001 05:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't see why Germany shouldn't pay and honour the veterans of the regular armed forces during WWII.

I agree...but I have asked the question. So I dont know.


I know certain units like the Africa Corp and Luftwaffe definetaly should be serparated from the S.S.

Rommel was, against hitlers orders, extremely nice to captured British Pow's. I suppose you heard about the story of the Hospital? Where the Italian troops were about to burn it down with a bunch of wounded UK soldier inside. He stopped them, and called german docters in to treat them.

	14-12-2001 05:55									#22
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't see why Germany shouldn't pay and honour the veterans of the regular armed forces during WWII.

I'm conflicted about this. First of all, almost each and every adult German during WWII was complicit in Nazi atrocities due to their inaction. Then again, they did die, and they should be remembered. Most of them were just normal people. But is remembering their deaths remembering them or remembering what they fought for?

	14-12-2001 06:01									#23
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Remembering them. I agree that German society as a whole was responsible for what happened, but I don't see the major difference between, say, the average Russian soldier and the average German soldier. If we're going to remember veterans of suh wars as the Zulu wars, etc., I don't see why German soldiers from WWII don't qualify. The war was wrong, but as soldiers they were doing their duty. Those who obeyed blatantly immoral orders should be reviled, but those that didn't should be treated with respect and remembrance for the danger they put themselves in.

	14-12-2001 06:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory 1) The Emperor did not make military/political decisions. That was left to Tojo. (or so I think)

Not true.

quote: 2) MacArthur (god bless him, a true patriot) wanted to use the emperor as a puppet.

True.

Hirohito played a large part in Japan's prosecution of the war. MacArthur and others covered up Hirohito's role in order to use him as a puppet.

	14-12-2001 06:07									#25
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Tojo played fall guy for the emperor. Hirohito was pretty much fully informed about details of Japan's war plans.

	14-12-2001 06:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Remembering them. I agree that German society as a whole was responsible for what happened, but I don't see the major difference between, say, the average Russian soldier and the average German soldier. If we're going to remember veterans of suh wars as the Zulu wars, etc., I don't see why German soldiers from WWII don't qualify. The war was wrong, but as soldiers they were doing their duty. Those who obeyed blatantly immoral orders should be reviled, but those that didn't should be treated with respect and remembrance for the danger they put themselves in.

please

you don't honor soldiers no matter how innocent they are for capturing/bombing whatever other countries without provocation by them.

	14-12-2001 06:09									#27
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 please you don't honor soldiers no matter how innocent they are for capturing other countries without provocation by them.

But is remembering them because they're dead indistinguishable from honoring their deeds?

	14-12-2001 06:13									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit But is remembering them because they're dead indistinguishable from honoring their deeds?

I don't know. How would a french, dutch,danish,greek,italian, polish, serbian, american, british, russian would feel if Germany remembered/honored the people who killed his/hers grandfathers in the most monstruous war of all?

	14-12-2001 06:13									#29
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When you consider the extent of German atrocities, particularly on the Eastern front where most soldiers served at least for a while, it's hard to view German soldiers as just like any others.

	14-12-2001 06:15									#30
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quote: you don't honor soldiers no matter how innocent they are for capturing/bombing whatever other countries without provocation by them

Whatever.