13-12-2001 21:13									#1
	Improving The End Game Tired of ads?

In many of my single-player games I find the end game goes by really really fast as I strive for Transcendance, acquiring new techs perhaps every 2 or 3 turns and then building both SPs within a 10-20 turns time period. Would removing the Transcendance victory condition make for a more interesting end game or would the game just get really tedious? It seems that the techs just come out too quick in the latter stages and you never have time to utilize them. I really like the beginning and middle periods of the game, what can be done to make the latter stages just as interesting?

	13-12-2001 21:34									#2
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Well, you could just not transcend (for the time being) and go on the rampage against the other factions, collecting SPs. Any faction base that looks close to transcending before you can usually be crushed fairly easily by that stage (assuming you have a few ODPs as insurance...).

Something I haven't seen mentioned here is that completing Threshold of Transcendence seems to switch off native swarms that are caused by excessive mineral production (but not the conversion to fungus). If you are green (pref. with manifold harmonics) you can even exploit this by building huge mineral-producing bases which provoke most of the planet to go fungal (this also causes great problems for other non-green factions) without the usual destruction that goes with this.

	13-12-2001 21:51									#3
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Hmm, I found the opposite effect in my last game. Right after I built the Voice of Planet I was invaded by HORDES of native life. I was playing Cult of Planet (with Manifold Harmonics); my entire continent was fungus (via formers and fungus missiles) and many of my cities had 40+ Eco Damage: I had recently built the Singularity Inductor (big mistake). I think those mineral bonus SPs are not a good idea to build - they give you much less flexibility. I lost a few cities but fortunately The Voice of Planet remained intact. What would happen if the VoP were to be destroyed - can Ascent to Transcendance still be built? Maybe the Native Life Swarm only has a chance to appear every X number of years and you just timed it right?

	13-12-2001 21:53									#4
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Tough question. In "regular" SP games I rarely have the patience to play out the endgame and if I do, I usually just conquer enough AI to get to the 75% of the votes needed for diplo victory. But usually, I just couldn't be bothered to play a game out when the win is in the bag (ie tech leader and my faction is as big as all the others combined with no real current threats)

Fluffy, you are right in that you can delay the win and I did this once . . . I built bases everywhere and enjoyed using the 4th tier of social choices. I conquered all the AI except one base and built all the late game SPs. It was fun for a while but the turns were long and I just said heck with it.


The only way I see to make the endgame more exciting is to make the early stages tougher. There are any number of AI tweaks, scenarios and challenges that do this. For me , the only way to make the endgame exciting is to have the possibility of losing. So my advice would be to try some of the ways to make the game harder right from the beginning since that could translate into a bit more of a horse race in the end

	13-12-2001 21:59									#5
	Remove this text

Yeah, I think you're right Flubber about making the early stages harder. If the game becomes more a come-from-behind style game it feels more rewarding as well. I don't build crawlers but I've yet to play on Transcend so that'll be my next step. Removing Forest Energy might be another step.

	13-12-2001 22:02									#6
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Yxklyx

Are you certain about that?? I haven't transcended for a while but I thought when you built the voice you got a pop up that among other things informed you that the worms were still around ( and worm pops continued) but that they were no longer attacking. Perhaps my recollection is faulty but I do seem to remember such a pop-up.

	13-12-2001 22:13									#7
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Hey

we are cross-posting here a lot . . . but your first step to make the game harder is to play on transcend. Once you beat that regularly (not that hard) then you look for other ways.

There are lots that don't require fiddling with the files. Try Miriam with double-blind research on transcend on a larger world.


Personally my method to make the later game exciting is to play MP-- in that if you start looking like you are the strongest, the other players will likely gang up on you and humans are so much more effective than the AI

	13-12-2001 22:16									#8
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This was on Thinker if it matters. Latest version of SMAX. What do you mean by "no longer attacking"? I definitely remember it like I mentioned because I was very afraid of losing VoP to the tens and tens of mindworm attacks (they appeared AFTER VoP was completed) and not being able to complete the Ascent SP. Maybe my self-use of Fungal payloads did it (or all the fungus I planted)? But that was quite a few turns before I reached Threshold. There had been some global warming courtesy of the Drones but with only minor sea level changes. It's possible that the city with VoP had Eco around 100.

	13-12-2001 22:21									#9
	Tired of ads?

Oh yeah, I play Double Blind too. Standard World size normally. Don't have time to allot to MP.

	14-12-2001 08:20									#10
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If you really want to enjoy using those late game techs, play on a MAP size around 200x200 with Transcend Victory disabled, or on a Map of 140x140 with tech stagnation.

I cannot recall a pop that produced worms after the Voice is built. This SP appears to be a permanent solution to ED.

However, if anyone does have worms, it would be interesting to know what the planet rating was, or whether you did not have the Pholus, etc. The lack of worms may be dependent on factors most of us have not considered.

Ned

	14-12-2001 11:57									#11
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There are some things that change once you build the Voice, like the rush building of SP becoming more expensive. Perhaps they changed some underlying parameter behind the worm generation while addressing some other matter and this is and unintended side effect. (For the record, I would be unable to say for sure that I had never seen a worm outbreak during the Transcendence race; I seem to recall . . . , and then . . >pop< . . . here I am back at the keyboard.)

Maybe the early playtesters atended to start a last minute nukefest in a last ditch try to destabilize the leader and the designers intentionally toned down the worm reaction to discourage this.

	14-12-2001 21:03									#12
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Besy way to enjoy endgame is to set a goal and restrict yourself to that goal come hell or highwater. I myself play morgan usually SP and only have conquest economic and all for one (everyones pacted,not diplo victory) i also never build more then 1-2 crawlers per city and never more then 10 cities. This keeps the turns quick even to late game.

	15-12-2001 01:33									#13
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Yxklyx Maybe my self-use of Fungal payloads did it (or all the fungus I planted)?

Fungal missles do cause worms and fungal towers IIRC

	15-12-2001 01:35									#14
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Well yeah, but only when they first detonate.