14-12-2001 13:34									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident but what I did get from the tape was they he did expect the buildings to collapse. He just didn't expect them to collapse completely (or nearly completely). Just the floors above the point of impact would collapse.

Exactly. And the main reason for total collapse was the sheer weight of the floors above coming down. If they looked into the effects, and know something about statics, it seems odd not to consider that chain reaction. Especially given the extremely careful planning involved in the whole thing. You coordinate 4 (or maybe up to 8 ?) hijackings, pick your targets, but don't think through what the actual impact is ?

Of course there may just be a translation error behind this.

	14-12-2001 13:43									#32
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same thing with the coup. that might be a translation error.

but my hunch was it was made in area 51. maybe the guards found out about it, hence why they are on strike

	14-12-2001 13:45									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident same thing with the coup. that might be a translation error. but my hunch was it was made in area 51. maybe the guards found out about it, hence why they are on strike

If they knew it, wouldn't they a) be dead or b) get their payhike without a strike ?

	14-12-2001 14:40									#34
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Though I tend not to trust our government, I have to say that I think it's probably authentic, if only because the US has almost nothing to gain by faking such a tape, and an enormous amount to lose if it were ever exposed as a fake. Of course, given the general level of "intelligence" at the CIA, maybe nobody considered that.

But this also begs a question I posted on another thread, but which seems more appropriate here: Without necessarily questioning the validity of the tapes per se, does anybody know any more about how it was found? "It was found in an abandoned house in Jalalabad" just seems beyond belief; you're conducting house-to-house searches in a place as big as Jalalabad, and you happen to grab this one videotape? I mean, did they know whose house it was? Did they just grab all videos they found, and sort them out later? ("Anything yet, Jim?" "No, but here's another Pamela/Tommy Lee for the pile.") Did it magically glisten like an object you're supposed to add to your inventory in a badly designed adventure game? Anybody have a sense of this?

	14-12-2001 15:34									#35
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"Did it magically glisten like an object you're supposed to add to your inventory in a badly designed adventure game?"

I'm sure it had a "Bin Laden: Confessions of Terrorism" label...

	14-12-2001 15:37									#36
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One good point I read in the newspaper: OBL wanted the tape to be found. He is anyways f***ed, so why not brag about his deeds and try to make a martyr of himself in parts of the arab world. So it was probably just left on a table in some Taleban-leader´s house.

	14-12-2001 16:09									#37
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That is a possibility, but it would only make sense in light of the Taliban collapse and his possible soon-to-be-no-more. But it is supposed to have been filmed earlier, is it not ?

"... if only because the US has almost nothing to gain by faking such a tape, and an enormous amount to lose if it were ever exposed as a fake."

The gain potential is not so limited for standing with the rest of the world. But I agree, it would be a tremendously stupid thing to do. But then, we are dealing with government here...

Yet again, if it were a US fabrication, Saddam would have been featured, not some Sheikh...

	14-12-2001 16:58									#38
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The other thing no one has mentioned here yet is the timing of the announcement. Yesterday's White House Press Schedule was something like:

10 am - announce that we're unilaterally abandoning the ABM treaty after failing to reach an agreement with the Russians

11 am - Release bin Laden tape

It does make you wonder how long they've been sitting on the thing.

	14-12-2001 19:15									#39
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I got a little inside american secret for some of you

You know those videotapes of planes hitting the wtc? Well those were all hollywood doctored films made to look like amateur videos. And the supposed rubble? Just another nice hollywood film job. Pretty convincing eh?

It was done basically to give the US an excuse to fight a war to boost the morale of the nation

	14-12-2001 19:48									#40
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I don't believe the WTC towers ever existed in the first place. All those people who claim to have seen them or been in them were paid actors, and all the photos were faked. You can tell by the suspicious shadows and lightings if you look closely at some of them. In fact, I even question whether New York itself really exists or is just a made-up city to help support the USA bluff of having an economy.

	14-12-2001 19:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Russell I don't believe the WTC towers ever existed in the first place. All those people who claim to have seen them or been in them were paid actors, and all the photos were faked. You can tell by the suspicious shadows and lightings if you look closely at some of them. In fact, I even question whether New York itself really exists or is just a made-up city to help support the USA bluff of having an economy.

If I was from New Zeland I would think the same way.

	15-12-2001 04:17									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly "It was found in an abandoned house in Jalalabad" just seems beyond belief; you're conducting house-to-house searches in a place as big as Jalalabad, and you happen to grab this one videotape? I mean, did they know whose house it was? Did they just grab all videos they found, and sort them out later?

I too found this statement odd and very unbelievable. I'm guessing that this is the "story" for the sake of security reasons. For instance, if one of OBL top men defected/surrendered and handed over the tape I'm not sure it would be prudent to go blaring that news around the world.

	15-12-2001 07:20									#43
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"Odd, I was thinking of a coup."

Again, don't get me wrong. Your initial thinking was rational, which lends credence to OBL's cronies' impressions. Also, we were acting in a very similar fashion to what a country would act like during a coup, I can imagine.

But for an American to think at the time that a coup was going on? For an American, the thought is totally alien. Incongruous. Our synapses aren't connected like that. Even similar ideas that would fall under a mistranslation are totally alien. Even Hollywood, the wildlife preserve we keep in order to weave stupid yarns, couldn't contemplate it--they've contemplated any number of other things, but I can't think of even a B movie that has spun a similar tale, unless maybe it involves buxom babes in a domination fetish.

So I can guarantee that an American wouldn't have the competence to pick a phrase like that. Even in Arabic. The decision makers who finally would OK the fabrication would say: "WTF is this?"

I don't know. Maybe the Austrians fabricated it for us. Now that would be genius!

Last edited by DanS on 15-12-2001 at 07:30

	15-12-2001 07:42									#44
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err a coup is when the military or some fraction effectively takes control of the goerning of the country.

This basically happens by capturing the centers of command and the media. What would the hits on WTC would had to do with a coup?

	15-12-2001 07:43									#45
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my english are great when i'm bored

	15-12-2001 11:48									#46
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 err a coup is when the military or some fraction effectively takes control of the goerning of the country. This basically happens by capturing the centers of command and the media. What would the hits on WTC would had to do with a coup?

Oldest trick in the book. Manufacture a crisis. Not that I'm saying this is even a possibility here, just that it's been known to happen before.

	15-12-2001 11:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Oldest trick in the book. Manufacture a crisis. Not that I'm saying this is even a possibility here, just that it's been known to happen before.

no,no. It's one thing to want to terrorise the populace into submission and another to enrage it so much that your ass will be grass 2 minutes after you make the coup.

If someone orcahstrated a coup, blowing up 3500 people in such a horrific manner would be equivalant to put a 200 kils of dynamite under his sit and light it up, no matter if he suceeded in diverting the authorities' attention!

	15-12-2001 11:55									#48
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maybe he got that misconceptin when the FAA ordered all planes grounded. He may have thought the FAA was affiliated with the military. You have to admit that was a very drastic thing to do- to take every single aircraft out of the sky. But other than that, there was no extreme reaction to Sepp11. Not even martial law that I can remember. The coup has to be a translation problem.

	15-12-2001 12:42									#49
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quote: If someone orcahstrated a coup, blowing up 3500 people in such a horrific manner would be equivalant to put a 200 kils of dynamite under his sit and light it up, no matter if he suceeded in diverting the authorities' attention

You don't understand the concept. Standard "Five-star general gets to be president". Planes blow up. Hopefully prez&vp also killed. Joint Chiefs declare state of emergency, grant themselves extraordinary power. Martial law, clamp down on communications. You've got the whole country in your fist. Classic example is the reign of th Commitee for Public Safety in revolutionary France. There the crisis was thrust upon them from outside (sort of) by the 1792 war, but same sort of deal in general.

Again, I don't think this is realistic in the case of the US, but in less developed parts of the world it's almost a standard method of gaining power.

	15-12-2001 12:47									#50
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I don't think so. The orchastrators of coups go after the men in power. Once they have that they try to keep down the people which is by then too surprised to act anyway. (they annonce a warning from the radio to people to stay at home for example)

If people who commit a coup (how are they called in english?) were to perform such acts of mass murder against the populace (as in 11 sept.) they couldn't last in power. The backlash would be too great.

In other words you don't do that kind of thing if you want to make a coup and stick to power. Not to say that it is absolutely unnecessairy to do it too.

	15-12-2001 12:52									#51
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Again you don't understand: you blame somebody else for the acts of terror. You go fight a half-assed war against them in order to distract people from the homefront. Also, you use this as an excuse to quietly disappear those who are going to object most loudly to the change in government.

	15-12-2001 12:58									#52
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No, I think you are now stretching too far KH.

We were talking about how to take over a country in a coup. Not how to make a democracy implode which means not how to reduce drastically civil rights.

A coup is one thing. Working -even manipualting - but always remaining in democreacy is another.

The standard procedure for a COUP (not for you to pass on your ideas in a functioning democracy) has nothing to do with mass murder and everything to do with seizing centers of power.

What possible good would for example have the people of the coup by smashing planes into the WTC???

No political leader was hurt. The people who died didn;t hold an importnat position of power.

It doesn't need to happen.

	15-12-2001 13:03									#53
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I don't see what your problem is.

IF: I am a high-ranking general
AND: I want power, no matter how I attain it
THEN: This is a good plan
BECAUSE: I will look like a knight in shining armour and nobody messes with somebody in shining armour.

	15-12-2001 13:07									#54
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i think you have seen too many films KH


so what you say is:

the general crashes the planes in the buldings (without saying it was him)
then comes up as a hero and says "i'll save your nation"
and all the people and all the politicians chant his name in praise.

is this what you are saying?

that never happens. It has to go through democratic procedures and then it's declaration of martial law as is envisioned by the constitution. That has N O T H I N G to do with a coup.


Clear up your head

	15-12-2001 13:10									#55
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a coup is seizing power through undemocratic means (no elections). that's it


manipualting a nation into martial law is something completely different.

	16-12-2001 09:47									#56
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The KrazyCat is right. That's usually what happens in a coup. Once a strongman seizes power martial law is imposed. Fighting a half-arsed war somewhere is also a good idea.

The idea behind imposing martial law is to do nasty things quietly to those oppose to your seizing of power.

	16-12-2001 10:41									#57
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Actually, on top of the World Trade Center was where a lot of the media were transmitting from. In a coup, it would have either been destroyed or taken over. Very prime real estate.

Of course, this is silly thinking. Right?

	16-12-2001 10:53									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Russell I don't believe the WTC towers ever existed in the first place. All those people who claim to have seen them or been in them were paid actors, and all the photos were faked. You can tell by the suspicious shadows and lightings if you look closely at some of them. In fact, I even question whether New York itself really exists or is just a made-up city to help support the USA bluff of having an economy.

Fifty years from now, if Apolyton is still around (God forbid ), this will be considered a debatable topic.

	17-12-2001 13:41									#59
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Dan:

"Your initial thinking was rational, which lends credence to OBL's cronies' impressions. Also, we were acting in a very similar fashion to what a country would act like during a coup, I can imagine."

I was taking a slightly different angle. The thing that brought up a coup as a remote possibility was the president being flown around like air cargo, and virtually nothing from other civilian top rank. I guess the surreal picture of the towers collapsing aided a bit to imaginiation.

"For an American, the thought is totally alien. Incongruous. Our synapses aren't connected like that. Even similar ideas that would fall under a mistranslation are totally alien."

So your private militia types are as fake as the moon landing ?

"Even Hollywood, the wildlife preserve we keep in order to weave stupid yarns, couldn't contemplate it..."

I think I've seen one or two hollywood movies with a military coup in US story.... close to it is the Clinton impeachment movie - oh wait....

"So I can guarantee that an American wouldn't have the competence to pick a phrase like that. Even in Arabic."

I'm sure they outsourced the actual production.

"I don't know. Maybe the Austrians fabricated it for us. Now that would be genius!"

As OBL didn't say anything about "hasta la vista", being back or Mozartkugeln, I doubt it...