14-12-2001 14:22									#1
	Psycho nut bastard AIs Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Since I upgraded to 1.16, the AIs have turned into raging warmongers. Even the oh so pacifistic Ghandi will backstab me, given the opportunity.

Good relations with AI's don't seem to help, they'll turn on you sooner or later.

Before the patch I was able to build my empire, maintain friendships other AIs, and fight the occasional war. But now it's constant war, the AIs turn hostile for no apparent reason to my great frustration.

The game loses it's immersion value when the AIs seemingly go to war at random. Maybe it's okay if play as a warmonger yourself, but if you like to a diplomatic/builder game, you're screwed.

I would very much like to see the AI agression level revert to it's previous state, as I find it frustrating to no end, and I can't imagine that I'm the only one.

Lars M. Nielsen

	14-12-2001 14:34									#2
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Weird, I won my first game on Regent after patching, and in the 6050 years the game covered (yes, I won by score) there were only two wars, both instigated by me. There were only 3 other AIs, it was on either a Tiny or Small archipelago map.

	14-12-2001 15:04									#3
	Very wierd..not me.. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have just won a post patch game (diplomatic victory) without one single war by anyone on anyone. Lots of threats and sabre rattling by Egyptians and Russians. They never fired a shot at each other or at me.
I am told that the game post patch"adjusts itself" to you game style.. not sure why it as adjusted to assume you are hell bent on war.

	14-12-2001 15:59									#4
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the same thing happend to me, my first game i was winnin by culture, the new game with the patch i have 4 other civs and i at war. THe are all againts me. And im stuck down the boot of italy, building swordmen after swordmen which seem to be a wast of time cause they only die.
well see what will happen.

	14-12-2001 16:22									#5
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Actually the opposite happened to me.

I was a peaceful builder the entire game, no-one was at war ever. We all traded luxuries and techs, and everyone was happy. Then India decided to invade me

I crushed them, but they had a massive stockpile of units to send. All this happened with version 1.07

And hasn't happened with 1.16f

	14-12-2001 18:00									#6
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The first few post-patch games I've played, the AI indeed turned annoyed very early and everyone attacked me for no obvious reason. Not in response to some aggression of mine, but just for the heck of it apparently. Also their demands were getting more and more unreasonable, to the point where every single delegation was invariably a case of "Give us that tech or we declare war."

Then I start a new game, and I start building embassies as early as I could afford them. Also, for a change, I never just refuse a treaty, but always give them some red herring instead. (E.g., instead of "no way" when they ask for an alliance, I say "will you listen to our counter-proposal instead?" and I give them something as useless as my world map as a gift. Again.) Then noone attacks me. More weird, now everyone has mutual protection pacts with everyone (except me, since I always refused that), free travel aggreements, and everything. Even the traditional warmongers like the Zulu, Japanese and Germans (who invariably attacked me before), now are friends with everyone. It's like the whole world is one big happy place and everyone's holding hands. Blah.

IF the AI is supposed to addapt to playing style, I guess it takes the lack of embassies as aggressive intentions. There probably are some other factors, too, but I never figured them out.

Either way, I can definitely confirm that the new AI does produce such extremes as total world war in one game, and total world peace in the next one. I'm guessing that some people saw only one of the two extremes.

	14-12-2001 18:14									#7
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I had both extremes in the one game!! But that was pre-patch.
Post-patch, I was the aggressor

	14-12-2001 18:35									#8
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on my current game I started out on a continent with 4 other civs. Since I was running out of settling teritorry, I've builded some weird city-colonies, that were barely connected to the rest of my Empire and cut deeply into the neighbors' realms. And guess what - one by one all four of them started a war with me. The first two rivals wered defeated while still in the ancient age! All of my previous game had wars somewhere in middle age.

Anyhow, what I'm trying to say, is that I think Diplomacy is only part of the player's style that AI looks at. It looks at much more bigger picture. So far I found AI to be realistic bastards, if I may say so. They start war because of million reasons, resources and territory being the major issues
(and yeah, I'm talking post-patch here)

	14-12-2001 18:40									#9
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Pre-patch it was simply sort of "unstable", for lack of a better word. Somewhat like keeping a jar of nytroglycerin on the shelf. All's well and peaceful, but if it falls, it will REALLY rock the casbah.

The AI would practically ALWAYS accept an alliance against someone, and would always try to ally with someone when at war, whether they need it or not. Even against their former allies. So basically the tiniest spark would invariably cause a chain reaction. But, as I've posted in another thread, that could just as well be used against it. I survived against rather powerful neighbours by just making everyone fight everyone, instead of fighting me.

But basically it would still be ONE state that had anything against you, while the others just joined in any fight against anyone.

Post-patch it's far more of an extreme. Here it's not a case of alliances, since the AI isn't as alliance-happy as before. It's a case of everyone on the map independently deciding to hate me, even people who are on the other end of it, and never even met me.

I might be wrong, but I don't think THAT kind of an extreme situation happened pre-patch.

And, well, if you're the aggressor, then I can understand stuff like that happening. It's more strange when I never did anything wrong to anyone, and always traded fairly. In fact, not just fairly, but signed trade aggreements where I'm being robbed blind.

	14-12-2001 20:32									#10
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In the game I'm currently playing (post-patch), I've found the AI to be a bit more aggressive with each other than I've seen them...but not overly different. I would concur that they seem to act a bit more independantly as well.

I'm playing India (I like the Commercial - Religious combo, reduces corruption allowing many good production cities with excellent culture, which post patch is an even bigger advantage). The only "problem" Civs in the game are the Babs and the Ruskies. That's with the Persians in the game too!!! The Ruskies and I have been at war for about a century now. For a while they just WOULDNT accept my envoy for peace. I would raze a couple citiies and ask again, and still no reply, rinse and repeat...urgh...still dirty. Eventually they came to me, but in a fit of frustration with them, I refused and here we are...thier empire getting smaller and mine bigger...but it's a really long war.

The Babs have been fighting someone most of the game, but I saw the Persians, Japanesse and Zulu do that pre-patch.

I don't see too many significant changes. Once, however, I tried to alter the rules through the editor to allow Police Stations to reduce corruption...which is one of the patch additions ...and the AI went crazy warmonger!!!! Maybe to some degree that's what is happening now?!?

Doesn't matter...I like a game where some of the AI civs peeve me off so I take some gratification in removing thier collective behinds from my little imaginary world!!!! God, I love this game.

	14-12-2001 20:40									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've noticed that the AI is a lot more aggressive post-patch also. At first, the AI was attacking me all over the place and I often found myself facing three or four allied opponents at once. Now, I adjusted my play-style to include a bigger military. That seems to help keep the peace. I think also the AI looks at who's top dog on the historgraph and if you're there, you're a target. When I'm #2 or 3, they seem more peaceful.

Another thing I'm wondering: post-patch the AI is still expanding rapidly, but it seems to keep its empires more "compact." That is, the cities are built to expand existing borders or are very close to existing borders. No more building cities far out unless there's a juicy resource to be grabbed (usually a block of luxuries). Anyone else noticed this?

	14-12-2001 20:51									#12
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Hmm... You may be right there. But then it can also be simply because now it respects borders. Previously, they'd walk all over everyone's lands, to settle on a one square tip that was still unclaimed. Now it's a lot harder to get in some places while staying out of everyone's borders, or it means a longer walk. That may be why it doesn't happen as often.

Speaking of which, I think another reason for wars may be precisely the border issue. If they want to go somewhere and your country is in the way, they'll start hating you for it. (And in my case, I play Civ like I play Go. I try to isolate patches of land and push whole civilizations into corners with no exit.) Offering them right of passage seems to keep them a lot happier, anway.

	14-12-2001 20:56									#13
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Now that you mentioned it, SeanK, I did notice that in the same game I just mentioned. There was a vast territory between myself and the English for a LONG time. Maybe the computer is playing to minimize its own corruption. That'd be nice, wouldn't it. It still makes military strategic blunders galore, though, and that's a bit disappioning, despite it's aggrssiveness.

e.g. -

All attack unit stacks move within my unit's striking range.
Still not upgrading units - AFAIK
Marching units within range of known bombers, without a potential blitzkreig strategy
The stupid "harassment" attacks stealing workers - which I guess is debatably worth it.
And on, and on, and on...

Speaking of the worker thing...they seem to magically disappear after capture...I've never been able to chase them down...even though they don't go any faster than artillery or infantry...and there are no railroads to rush them back to Mother Russia.

I'm glad the AI isn't just expanding to expand, even though I used to end up with all of thier ill-conceived cities...

	14-12-2001 21:03									#14
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given the variety of your experiences (and mine) i guess post patch AI varies....which is good....every game is different

	14-12-2001 21:22									#15
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quote: Originally posted by SeanK Another thing I'm wondering: post-patch the AI is still expanding rapidly, but it seems to keep its empires more "compact." That is, the cities are built to expand existing borders or are very close to existing borders. No more building cities far out unless there's a juicy resource to be grabbed (usually a block of luxuries). Anyone else noticed this?

I yet to see that. In my first post-patch game I had two neighboring civs race through my territory to the only empty spot on my end - a narrow peninnsula with nothing but couple of forests and hills, tens-of-grids away from their own Empires. Of course, I waited until the last moment to block the peninnsula. While they were travelling back and forth, I've planned couple cities in their back-yard

	15-12-2001 01:32									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Buster13 e.g. - peaking of the worker thing...they seem to magically disappear after capture...I've never been able to chase them down...even though they don't go any faster than artillery or infantry...and there are no railroads to rush them back to Mother Russia.

I think I have seen missing worker phenomena (post-patch) - they may be
disbanding workers that they cannot get
out of your territory to deny you the
ability to recapture them.

This makes sense when combined with their proclivity to
pillage your improvements.

	15-12-2001 02:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Mokael I yet to see that. In my first post-patch game I had two neighboring civs race through my territory to the only empty spot on my end - a narrow peninnsula with nothing but couple of forests and hills, tens-of-grids away from their own Empires. Of course, I waited until the last moment to block the peninnsula. While they were travelling back and forth, I've planned couple cities in their back-yard

I was referring in my original post to the initial land-grab part of the game, when the civs are first defining their nations. Once most of the land has been taken, the AI still looks for empty nooks and crannies to fill, usually at the outskirts of MY territory, and they have to pass through it to get there.

	15-12-2001 07:02									#18
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I had a very mysterious post-patch experience.

The French were Gracious towards me, mainly because I gave them a load of gifts to fight the Germans (I didn't want the Germans to wipe out the French and become a world power...it's fun to mess with the AI that way ) and they eventually repulsed the attack long enough to make peace. The French were Gracious for a while afterwards, and we were trading peacefully. Then...

I check on them in what we'll call Turn One. Still Gracious.

Turn Two: the French abrubtly cancel our little Incense deal. No explanation given. Didn't check to see what Joan's attitude was.

Turn Three: French declare war and raze two of my poorly-defended cities (hey, it was on another continent and I never expected the French, of all the civs, to declare war on me!)

I wiped the French out after that, of course, but it was very strange. From Gracious to war in three turns, and I had done nothing whatsoever to prompt the attack. Weird.

	15-12-2001 09:35									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Jumping Choya I had a very mysterious post-patch experience. The French were Gracious towards me, mainly because I gave them a load of gifts to fight the Germans (I didn't want the Germans to wipe out the French and become a world power...it's fun to mess with the AI that way ) and they eventually repulsed the attack long enough to make peace. The French were Gracious for a while afterwards, and we were trading peacefully. Then... I check on them in what we'll call Turn One. Still Gracious. Turn Two: the French abrubtly cancel our little Incense deal. No explanation given. Didn't check to see what Joan's attitude was. Turn Three: French declare war and raze two of my poorly-defended cities (hey, it was on another continent and I never expected the French, of all the civs, to declare war on me!) I wiped the French out after that, of course, but it was very strange. From Gracious to war in three turns, and I had done nothing whatsoever to prompt the attack. Weird.

My personal theory that might explain this is that the AI is programmed to take advantage of you. Since we know that the AI can see everything, it may well have decided that it's terratory wasn't big enough, and then looked around and saw who's cities it could take easiest (and factored in military strength and diplomatic relations). Since your cities were lightly defended, and you were on a different continent, the AI declared war on you. I'm not sure if this is how it works, but I hope so, since that's exactly what I do -- I look at the civ that shares a huge border with me, and attack them, taking over some of those small cities that are holding my boarders back.

Anyway, just my hope/theory that might explain that.

-- adaMada

	15-12-2001 09:53									#20
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The AI is more militaristic than pre patch, i must admit.

The French and Indians combined wiped out the Aztecs, Germans, and have made inroads into the Roman empire. Probably because the actual militaristic civs were behind in technology. On the other hand, they have all left me alone as i have kept a large standing army, even though im at peace and own my entire continent.