15-12-2001 03:05									#1
	How to sell a luxury in 73 steps Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Substitute appropriate luxuries, civilizations, and leaders as necessary.

1. Press F4 (or click advisors button, click foreign advisor)
   
2. Double-click Tokugawa's head
   
3. Click "We would like to propose a deal..."
   
4. Click Luxuries and then click Spices
   
5. Click "Would you care to offer something in exchange for Spices?"
   
6. Write down Japanese, lump sum, and per turn amounts
   
7. Click "Never mind."
   
8. Click "That's it. Goodbye, Tokugawa."
   
9. Double-click Elizabeth's head
   
10. Click "We would like to propose a deal..."
    
11. Click Luxuries and then click Spices
    
12. Click "Would you care to offer something in exchange for Spices?"
    
13. Write down English, lump sum, and per turn amounts
    
14. Click "Never mind."
    
15. Click "That's it. Goodbye, Elizabeth."
    
16. Double-click Mao's head
    
17. Click "We would like to propose a deal..."
    
18. Click Luxuries and then click Spices
    
19. Click "Would you care to offer something in exchange for Spices?"
    
20. Write down Chinese, lump sum, and per turn amounts
    
21. Click "Never mind."
    
22. Click "That's it. Goodbye, Mao."
    
23. Double-click Lincoln's head
    
24. Click "We would like to propose a deal..."
    
25. Click Luxuries and then click Spices
    
26. Click "Would you care to offer something in exchange for Spices?"
    
27. Write down American, lump sum, and per turn amounts
    
28. Click "Never mind."
    
29. Click "That's it. Goodbye, Lincoln."
    
30. Double-click Alexander's head
    
31. Click "We would like to propose a deal..."
    
32. Click Luxuries and then click Spices
    
33. Click "Would you care to offer something in exchange for Spices?"
    
34. Write down Greek, lump sum, and per turn amounts
    
35. Click "Never mind."
    
36. Click "That's it. Goodbye, Alexander."
    
37. Double-click Joan d'Arc's head
    
38. Click "We would like to propose a deal..."
    
39. Click Luxuries and then click Spices
    
40. Click "Would you care to offer something in exchange for Spices?"
    
41. Write down French, lump sum, and per turn amounts
    
42. Click "Never mind."
    
43. Click "That's it. Goodbye, Joan D'Arc."
    
44. Double-click Bismark's head
    
45. Click "We would like to propose a deal..."
    
46. Click Luxuries and then click Spices
    
47. Click "Would you care to offer something in exchange for Spices?"
    
48. Write down German, lump sum, and per turn amounts
    
49. Click "Never mind."
    
50. Click "That's it. Goodbye, Bismark."
    
51. Breath a big sigh of relief that you're not playing a huge map / 16 player game. Look over the offers you've written down, and choose the best one.
    
52. Double-click Alexander's head.
    
53. Click "We would like to propose a deal..."
    
54. Click Luxuries and then click Spices
    
55. Click Gold and then click Per Turn
    
56. Type an amount 10 higher than you wrote down earlier, click O, note Foreign Advisor comment (This deal will probably be acceptable)
    
57. Click the Per Turn you just offered to cancel that offer.
    
58. Click Per TurnTurn[/i]
    
59. Type an amount 10 higher than you just did, click O, note Foreign Advisor comment (They would never accept this offer)
    
60. Click the Per Turn you just offered to cancel that offer.
    
61. Click the Per Turn you just offered to cancel that offer.
    
62. Click Per TurnTurn[/i]
    
63. Type an amount 5 lower than you just did, click O, note Foreign Advisor comment (We're getting close to a deal here)
    
64. Click the Per Turn you just offered to cancel that offer.
    
65. Click Per TurnTurn[/i]
    
66. Type an amount 5 lower than you just did, click O, note Foreign Advisor comment (We're getting close to a deal here)
    
67. Click the Per Turn you just offered to cancel that offer.
    
68. Click Per TurnTurn[/i]
    
69. Type an amount 5 lower than you just did, click O, note Foreign Advisor comment (They will probably accept this offer)
    
70. Click Lump Sum
    
71. Type the Lump Sum amount you wrote down earlier, click O. Note that an offer of, for example, 80 gold, can usually be increased to 84 gold (or however much they have). Increase appropriately. Note foreign advisor comment (still ok)
    
72. Click "Will you accept this deal, Alexander?"
    
73. Click "That's it. Goodbye, Alexander."
    

Last edited by ChrisShaffer on 15-12-2001 at 03:14

	15-12-2001 03:07									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Wash, rinse, repeat in 20 turns. If you remember to check your trade deals in 20 turns, which requires a whole 'nother set of clicks...

	15-12-2001 03:13									#3
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Interesting, changing the post subject for the first post doesn't change the thread title, which should be 73 steps, not 80...I typoed the original list.

	15-12-2001 03:19									#4
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Well, factor in some error, and 80 doesn't seem too unreasonable. I am curious if it took longer to make this post, or longer to make the trade

Personally, I just pick one "friend" every game and several "bad guys"...that way I don't have min/max my way to the top.

K

	15-12-2001 03:23									#5
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Assuming you don't think about strategic benefits of trading with a certain partner beforehand, yes.

Assuming there are no really valuable items to be had for yourself in return, possessed by certain others, yes.

And perhaps most imortantly -

Assuming the you MUST get the very last tablescrap for your luxury, yes.

	15-12-2001 03:26									#6
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It took less time to make the list, actually, since I could cut/paste a lot of it.

However, I note that on Emperor (and presumably Deity) it's not min/maxing to the top, it's taking every opportunity available to increase the chances of survival.

The point, of course, is that there are better ways to allow the player to compare offers from multiple factions. Why does it take 70+ clicks to get this done?

	15-12-2001 03:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy Assuming you don't think about strategic benefits of trading with a certain partner beforehand, yes. Assuming there are no really valuable items to be had for yourself in return, possessed by certain others, yes.

Actually, those have the potential to make the process take even longer, by adding in more factors to consider. I just did it straight gold to keep it simpler.

quote: And perhaps most imortantly - Assuming the you MUST get the very last tablescrap for your luxury, yes.

Even if you take out the last steps, where I maxed it, it still takes 50 steps just to see the basic "what will you offer for this" list!

	15-12-2001 03:41									#8
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Another "posting a 'complaint' without offering a solution" thread. Tell me how would YOU design a trading system where it encompasses diplomacy, individual commodity trading (units, cities, gold, etc.) with a single opponent, and yet still have a roundtable auction which is what you are supposedly wanting? I definetely don't think having a roundtable diplomacy is needed, esp. if it takes away from the excellent one-on-one give and take we have now. Besides, what are you doing shopping a luxury like a peddler? How about using the model as it was intended, to bargain and to work on relationships between your civ and the other?

	15-12-2001 03:41									#9
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I forgot to mention above:

I am in full agreement with you.
The price of a new idea in gaming, I'm afraid.

K

	15-12-2001 03:43									#10
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer Actually, those have the potential to make the process take even longer, by adding in more factors to consider. I just did it straight gold to keep it simpler.

No it would not, because it would eliminate options beforehand. No need to click F4 etc.

You also assume that you can in fact trade with all civs and that they all want your resource, which is unlikey to occur very often. But that's just a small quibble on my part.

quote: Even if you take out the last steps, where I maxed it, it still takes 50 steps just to see the basic "what will you offer for this" list!

No I meant you don't need to shop it around those civs. Just go to your preferred partner and trade it for a reasonable price. Crude but RSI-lessening.

You are the vicitim of your own perfectionism... although I do admit that Civ has a way of inciting that sort of thing.

	15-12-2001 04:12									#11
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I guess a potential 'fix', if needed, would be to make an offer and then display a table of proffered offers appear, or whatever. That way, you could see who would give you the most for a good/tech/whatever.

Come to think of it, I kinda like that idea.....

	15-12-2001 04:40									#12
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Jeez, I'd NEVER go through all of that and CIV just isn't built to be any easier. I offer and whatever they want to give I accept, I'm in and out without hardly pausing to look at the gold per turn amount.

	15-12-2001 04:47									#13
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The simplest way would've been to have a Simultaneous Turn Market based system like in Imperialism, that I described back in the List threads.

But they decided against Simultaneous turns, so a true market based system wouldn't work now.

	15-12-2001 05:32									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark Another "posting a 'complaint' without offering a solution" thread. Tell me how would YOU design a trading system where it encompasses diplomacy, individual commodity trading (units, cities, gold, etc.) with a single opponent, and yet still have a roundtable auction which is what you are supposedly wanting? I definetely don't think having a roundtable diplomacy is needed, esp. if it takes away from the excellent one-on-one give and take we have now. Besides, what are you doing shopping a luxury like a peddler? How about using the model as it was intended, to bargain and to work on relationships between your civ and the other?

Well, here's one possibility. I look at the trade advisor screen (F2), see that a luxury is available to be traded, double click it and am presented with a screen showing all the civs that would like it and their basic offer. I then click on the offer that appeals most (based on value, strategy, friendship, whatever) and the existing trading table appears.

That alone would save 50 steps.

	15-12-2001 05:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy You are the vicitim of your own perfectionism... although I do admit that Civ has a way of inciting that sort of thing.

This is so true. The only reason someone needs to complain like the above post is because that player simply wants the best deal possible. Take the luxuries and resources system/trading away, and that same player would more than likely play as an isolationist, except when the need to gain a new tech arises.

This is not Civ2, remember that.

Making friends is more important than being able to get 1-10 gold extra per turn. It's not like you'd be getting 100's of gold per turn more by probing each civ. Is your time really worth this? Besides most civs offer roughly the same thing, as the AI generally places a set value over goods. Also the list makes no sense after turn 51.

Also ever hear tried hitting your ESC key with a diplomatic negotiation table open?

It keeps the trade alive until you return to that diplomatic screen. I think you like touching your mouse too much....

	15-12-2001 05:38									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy You also assume that you can in fact trade with all civs and that they all want your resource, which is unlikey to occur very often. But that's just a small quibble on my part.

Yes, but you still have to go to the trading table just to find out they don't want your luxury

quote: No I meant you don't need to shop it around those civs. Just go to your preferred partner and trade it for a reasonable price. Crude but RSI-lessening. You are the vicitim of your own perfectionism... although I do admit that Civ has a way of inciting that sort of thing.

Well, in my current game my preferred partner is the Romans. If I took your advice, I'd be getting 15 gold / turn for my spices. Using my method, I got 45 gold / turn from the Russians. That's 600 gold more - not an insignificant amount. When you multiply that by the four different types of luxuries I'm currently selling...

	15-12-2001 05:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Kromwel The price of a new idea in gaming, I'm afraid.

There is nothing inevitable abou this. This is straight up horse$hit. Pure failure on the part of the designers to improve a part of the design. It is particularly bad since they have been touting the improved dimplomacy since day one. It stupid that one of the more common tasks in diplomacy should take dozens of clicks (compared to 2 clicks for everything in Mo3!!). Its funny how they managed to add the useless "would you like to trade world maps" or the peace treaty quick options which are entirely useless and even if they were practical would only save a couple clicks. Does anyone there know anything about interface design??

	15-12-2001 05:42									#18
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer Yes, but you still have to go to the trading table just to find out they don't want your luxury

If you click on the trade tab in your foreign advisor screen, the advisor will be able to tell you what type of goods the other AI might want to trade. Hover your mouse over an AI's head a few times and you'll see stuff like:

"The french are furious with us"
"The french have no surplus goods to trade with us"
"The french might go for some our wines"

etc.

	15-12-2001 05:57									#19
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quote: Originally posted by smellymummy Making friends is more important than being able to get 1-10 gold extra per turn. It's not like you'd be getting 100's of gold per turn more by probing each civ. Is your time really worth this? Besides most civs offer roughly the same thing, as the AI generally places a set value over goods. Also the list makes no sense after turn 51.

I often get 20 or 50 more gold per turn this way, and when I'm selling multiple resources that can work out to hundreds per turn.

quote: Also ever hear tried hitting your ESC key with a diplomatic negotiation table open? It keeps the trade alive until you return to that diplomatic screen. I think you like touching your mouse too much....

Well, that's a nice undocumented feature, thanks for letting me know about it.

However, your comment about touching the mouse is uncalled for. The game is almost entirely mouse driven. Using my mouse is required, not optional.

	15-12-2001 05:58									#20
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quote: Originally posted by smellymummy If you click on the trade tab in your foreign advisor screen, the advisor will be able to tell you what type of goods the other AI might want to trade. Hover your mouse over an AI's head a few times and you'll see stuff like: "The french are furious with us" "The french have no surplus goods to trade with us" "The french might go for some our wines" etc.

That takes almost as many, if not more, clicks than my method.

	15-12-2001 06:11									#21
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hovering the mouse over the AI's head in the foreign advisor screen is not clicking. Nor does it involve having to open up a new diplomacy window.

It's a simple mouse-over....

Look at the top of the poly forum, see where it shows the forum and thread you're currently in? It looks a bit like this.. :

Apolyton CS Forums > Civilization III > Civ3-General > How to ...

Hover your mouse over these and you'll see how one of the headers turns underligned and then not.

Same thing is used in the foreign advisor's window. No clicking, just a quick wrist movement, or in my case a thumb twirl.

	15-12-2001 06:14									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker The simplest way would've been to have a Simultaneous Turn Market based system like in Imperialism, that I described back in the List threads. But they decided against Simultaneous turns, so a true market based system wouldn't work now.

Umm, no it wouldn't have been simple, it would have entirely changed the type of game. You couldn't call it a civilization game if it was 'simultaneous turns'.

I find no problem with the trade system, especially now that the ai is less likely to get duped by per turn trading anymore. Also, when I sell a luxury, I don't make up my mind based on who will give me a few gold more, I know who I will be willing to trade with in advance, and others will have to pay me much more to get the trade.

	15-12-2001 06:17									#23
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer However, your comment about touching the mouse is uncalled for.

You're right. Sorry

	15-12-2001 06:37									#24
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Where is that ESC key feature documented?

I ask because it is so blisteringly useful and would have saved me a great deal of frustration on many occassions ... if it isn't documented, I'll be quite disgusted.

	15-12-2001 07:07									#25
	Re: How to sell a luxury in 73 steps Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer [*] Click the Per Turn you just offered to cancel that offer. [*] Click Per TurnTurn[/i] [*] Type an amount 5 lower than you just did, click O, note

I discovered that you can cut these clicks in half with a right-click. The right-click will cancel the old dollar amount and bring up the box for you to enter a new amount.

Of course, this is not in the manual. I stumbled upon it by accident. It might not seem like much at first, but as you know, all those clicks start to add up!

	15-12-2001 11:19									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Kolyana Where is that ESC key feature documented? I ask because it is so blisteringly useful and would have saved me a great deal of frustration on many occassions ... if it isn't documented, I'll be quite disgusted.

It's not. Just a habit of mine to hit ESC to close a window

	15-12-2001 11:52									#27
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Well, the right click and esc commands will help a lot. I'd still really like to be able to double click a luxury from the Trade Advisor and have it list the basic offer from each civilization for the resource.

	15-12-2001 11:56									#28
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I think the biggest thing that needs to be fixed is being told when the 20 turns are up on trade deals. Without talking to each of my trading partners I can't find out:
- how many turns left in agreement
- what the trade deal is

These should really be on the trade advisor screen somewhere, and unless there's a secret way to find these things out which was not in the manual I think this should be added in some way.

	15-12-2001 12:07									#29
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quote: Originally posted by barefootbadass Umm, no it wouldn't have been simple, it would have entirely changed the type of game. You couldn't call it a civilization game if it was 'simultaneous turns'.

Actually, you could. There are many ways to implement simultaneous turns without turning the game into an RTS. For example:

• All players (human and AI) receive a turn report, which can be reviewed and replayed as desired.
  
• All players create a set of potential orders for units, cities, and diplomacy.
  
• All players submit orders.
  
• All orders are adjudicated (on schedule or when all players have submitted orders). Conflicting orders are decided using a rule-based priority system.
  
• Game generates turn reports.
  
• Repeat 540 times
  

	15-12-2001 12:14									#30
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer Well, the right click and esc commands will help a lot. I'd still really like to be able to double click a luxury from the Trade Advisor and have it list the basic offer from each civilization for the resource.

actually thats a perfect solution, that can also be applied for tech trading and also to be able to view treaties etc.

It's true that as it is now, theres too much window jumping in some cases. One plain screen with all the information is needed.

And its not like it would be impossible to implement. The AI has access to this information already; there just a whole bunch of variables. A summary type of window would be a welcome addition for sure IMO.