16-12-2001 04:08									#1
	Forum CENSORSHIP Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A strange thing happened when replying to a message -

I tried to post it, and got a message that the thread was invalid. That's wierd. So I opened the forum in a new windows... and the whole thread is gone! Poof!

The thread was about Corruption - posted by Brutal, titled -

quote: FIRAXIS I've had it this corruption ruins my fun I have had it with this corruption. I like to build big and sprawling empires but with your latest installment with Civ3 there is no way to do this without outrageous corruption...

And so on.

Has this thread been deleted? Why? An objectionable thread should be CLOSED, not deleted. I see no mention of it being moved. Is this forum now asskiss only? Because it sures seems like the only way this thread is deleted is by moderators, and the only reason I can imagine this was deleted was to make it more Firaxis friendly.

If this is the case, be open about it and say so, now.

Venger

	16-12-2001 04:27									#2
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Not sure, but... Can't the author delete a message, too? I'm sure I saw a delete button when editing the first message in my mods' thereads. (To put a new version in there.)

	16-12-2001 04:38									#3
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I've tried deleting my own posts (usually after a double post) and am not allowed.

This post of his had already elicited numerous replies, from the shill side of the ledger...

Venger

	16-12-2001 04:41									#4
	Re: Forum CENSORSHIP Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Venger Has this thread been deleted? Why? An objectionable thread should be CLOSED, not deleted. I see no mention of it being moved. Is this forum now asskiss only? Because it sures seems like the only way this thread is deleted is by moderators, and the only reason I can imagine this was deleted was to make it more Firaxis friendly. If this is the case, be open about it and say so, now. Venger

I agree with Venger. Even though I replied harshly to Brutal's post I didn't think that censorship was the answer. OR was it my reply, seeing as it was a little over the top. I came back to edit my post and the whole thread was gone.

	16-12-2001 04:54									#5
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Whatever is the cause of error messages and disappearing threads, please realize that this is not a public forum -- it is put up by the owners of this site, and they can do whatever they damn well please.

And there's nothing you can do besides go somwhere else, or you can start your own forum.

	16-12-2001 05:02									#6
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XPav, everyone knows that this is a private forum, but everyone has come to expect complete openness from the forum moderators because that is the way it has been run for as long as I have been a lurker then poster. However, it was quite rude for Venger to imply that the mods are Firaxis stooges since he and a few others would be banned if that were true.

	16-12-2001 05:13									#7
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First... this thread is being moved to the Apoltyon Forum where ALL complaints about mods belong.

Second... Threads that flame any member... and that includes posters from Firixas will be closed/deleted.

Third... Spam isn't allowed. When there are already Multiple Threads on a given subject, additional thread will be closed/deleted.

If you want to complain, feel free to contact the Amin on this subject!

	16-12-2001 05:21									#8
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quote: Originally posted by XPav Whatever is the cause of error messages and disappearing threads, please realize that this is not a public forum -- it is put up by the owners of this site, and they can do whatever they damn well please. And there's nothing you can do besides go somwhere else, or you can start your own forum.

Agree 100%. We are all guests here, and as such we should conduct ourselves in these forums in much the same way we would were we guests in someone's home. Their house=their rules.

In this case, though, we have been invited for the express purpose of debating/arguing/discussing issues related to the Civilization series of games. Unless such discourse lapses into extreme profanity, racial slurs, or other widely accepted crass forms of behavior than it becomes hard to justify deleting/heavily editing posts.

If the post in question was deleted simply because its' topic was deemed "stale" or "inflammatory" than that is disturbuing but completely within the wherewithall of the moderators. However, it is crucial that the site's owners make this publicly known.

Also, keeping this site going takes money from advertisers, and advertisers fund sites with lots of hits. If people start feeling that their ideas are being arbitrarily censored, they will go elsewhere. The advertisers will follow, and the site will suffer.

Moderators are best who moderate least.

	16-12-2001 05:33									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by senowen However, it was quite rude for Venger to imply that the mods are Firaxis stooges since he and a few others would be banned if that were true.

Rude was what you wrote to Brutal.

That said, can you offer any other explanation as to what happened? My money is on Ming deleting the thread because they wan't a Firaxis friendly forum.

XPav's "take their marbles and go home" attitude is just fine, just lay the groundrules out for everyone to see. If this is a fanboy forum, so be it, just let us know...

Venger

	16-12-2001 05:37									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Terser If people start feeling that their ideas are being arbitrarily censored, they will go elsewhere. The advertisers will follow, and the site will suffer. Moderators are best who moderate least.

No... Moderators that do their job are best of all.

There was NO need for ANOTHER thread on the subject, and it added NOTHING new to the discussion. Peoplo are just cluttering up the forum because they are either too lazy to post their thoughts in one of the MANY threads already on the subject, or are just interested in seeing a thread with their name on it.
The biggest number of complaints I receive (besides flaming and personal attacks) is the clutter in the Civ III general forum.
Just doing my job.

In addition... there is no problem with people posting their negative feelings or opinions about the game. As anybody can see from looking at the number of negative threads, to imply that peoples "feelings" are being censored is just plain incorrect.

However, people who want to attack other members of this site with insults (and this includes Firaxis) are just breaking the rules that they have agreed to by becoming a member.

Again, if people don't like this policy, they can go post thier personal attacks and insults somewhere else. There are many forums where you can do it. They aren't allowed here.

IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

	16-12-2001 05:39									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ming First... this thread is being moved to the Apoltyon Forum where ALL complaints about mods belong.

And where Firaxis won't see it...

And did sombody complain about a moderator? I haven't seen one.

quote: Second... Threads that flame any member... and that includes posters from Firixas will be closed/deleted.

So is that what happened? How about fessing up, if you have the sack to?

quote: Third... Spam isn't allowed.

Spam? Give us a break, how does AH still even have an account here?

quote: When there are already Multiple Threads on a given subject, additional thread will be closed/deleted.

Can you point me then to the ONE thread on corruption?

quote: If you want to complain, feel free to contact the Amin on this subject!

Oh yes, I'm sure the self policing between you two would result in something being done...

Venger

	16-12-2001 05:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Venger That said, can you offer any other explanation as to what happened? My money is on Ming deleting the thread because they wan't a Firaxis friendly forum.

Firxas friendly... HA HA HA HA. Again, read through the multiple negative threads that are in plain sight in the General Forum.
If people are just going to start their own thread on a subject that has already been beaten to death, it will disappear or be closed. How hard is it to find one of the numerous threads already on the subject, and post it there

	16-12-2001 05:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Firxas friendly... HA HA HA HA. Again, read through the multiple negative threads that are in plain sight in the General Forum. If people are just going to start their own thread on a subject that has already been beaten to death, it will disappear or be closed.

Then close it. Deleting it changes the nature of these forums.

quote: How hard is it to find one of the numerous threads already on the subject, and post it there

Because tacking on a post to a stale 3 page thread that has run it's course doesn't do anyone any good.

Venger

	16-12-2001 05:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Venger And where Firaxis won't see it...

Uhhh... if that had been the case, I would have deleted it and not left the redirect... But, ALL complaints about moderation are ALWAYS moved to this forum... no exceptions.

quote: So is that what happened? How about fessing up, if you have the sack to?

Didn't I post the reasons in this thread already????

quote: Spam? Give us a break, how does AH still even have an account here?

He has the same right to keep posting as you do? Your point?

quote: Can you point me then to the ONE thread on corruption?

Why, cant' you find one on your own? Lord knows there are already enough of them.

quote: Oh yes, I'm sure the self policing between you two would result in something being done...

If you have a valid complaint, the Admin will listen to you and take action. They have done so on many occasions.
So again, feel free to make your complaints.

	16-12-2001 05:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ming There was NO need for ANOTHER thread on the subject, and it added NOTHING new to the discussion. Peoplo are just cluttering up the forum because they are either too lazy to post their thoughts in one of the MANY threads already on the subject, or are just interested in seeing a thread with their name on it. The biggest number of complaints I receive (besides flaming and personal attacks) is the clutter in the Civ III general forum. Just doing my job.

Then Ming...consider this. What are the hot button issues in CivIII right now?

Corruption
Combat system
Cultural assimilation of cities
War weariness

And others to be sure. Establish threads such as "Discuss corruption and its' affect on gameplay here" and publicly announce (in that thread or another) that all other threads began on that subject will immediately be deleted. When the thread gets too long for easy reading, publicly announce that you are going to have to delete it.

I would be for such a system, because I agree that the forum is too cluttered with redundant threads. An open system like this would work much better than simply deleting threads on a continuous basis, and it would help curb accusations that the mods are cherrypicking which threads they chose to eliminate.

	16-12-2001 05:58									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Terser I would be for such a system, because I agree that the forum is too cluttered with redundant threads. An open system like this would work much better than simply deleting threads on a continuous basis, and it would help curb accusations that the mods are cherrypicking which threads they chose to eliminate.

Frankly, I don't care what people think. I'm not here to make everybody like me. I'm here to do a job. And if people don't like it... their problem, not mine. I'm not going to spend every waking minute organizing the general forum for you. If people are too lazy to even to bother to check page 2 to see if a thread is already available on a problem... that's their problem.

Yes, there are some big issues about Civ III. But when I receive complaints from members or, I see a topic that already has multiple threads about it, and the new thread adds NOTHING to the discussion, I will continue to delete/close them.

	16-12-2001 05:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Uhhh... if that had been the case, I would have deleted it and not left the redirect... But, ALL complaints about moderation are ALWAYS moved to this forum... no exceptions.

You would have deleted a post questioning your deletion of a post?

quote: Didn't I post the reasons in this thread already????

You finally seemed to admit it (though I have yet to actually see words to the effect of "I deleted it" in a response that you submitted after I had my edit screen open for that response.

quote: He has the same right to keep posting as you do? Your point?

You claimed a spam problem, allow me to identify for you the wheat and chaff in Civ3-General - hint: the compilation of reviews is CHAFF.

quote: Why, cant' you find one on your own? Lord knows there are already enough of them.

Which is MY POINT. You chose this one to delete...why? Simply remarking that the thread should be taken up in one of the existing ones and closing the thread would have been fine. What other posts aren't we seeing?

quote: If you have a valid complaint, the Admin will listen to you and take action. They have done so on many occasions. So again, feel free to make your complaints.

Yeah just don't make your complaint "redundant", cause it'll be deleted...

Venger

	16-12-2001 06:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Frankly, I don't care what people think. I'm not here to make everybody like me. I'm here to do a job.

Oh my! Here to do a job... boy you do like that Moderator badge don't you...

quote: And if people don't like it... their problem, not mine. I'm not going to spend every waking minute organizing the general forum for you.

But you're here to do a job!

quote: If people are too lazy to even to bother to check page 2 to see if a thread is already available on a problem... that's their problem.

So are you going to delete every thread but the primogeniture of every topic? Thought not.

quote: Yes, there are some big issues about Civ III. But when I receive complaints from members or, I see a topic that already has multiple threads about it, and the new thread adds NOTHING to the discussion, I will continue to delete/close them.

Quit trying to cover your ass with delete/close, because your answer was simply DELETE. No one has questioned closing threads, we question having them disappear off the face of the earth.

Venger

	16-12-2001 06:07									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Venger You would have deleted a post questioning your deletion of a post?

Read my lips... ALL complaints get moved to this forum... even yours.

quote: You finally seemed to admit it (though I have yet to actually see words to the effect of "I deleted it" in a response that you submitted after I had my edit screen open for that response.

I have not hid my actions. I responded the minute I saw the complaint. However, I'm not going to waste my time every time I close or delete a thread. When questions come up, I always respond when I see them... But I report to the admin here, not you.

quote: You claimed a spam problem, allow me to identify for you the wheat and chaff in Civ3-General - hint: the compilation of reviews is CHAFF.

You are always welcome to your own opinion... just like I am!

quote: Which is MY POINT. You chose this one to delete...why? Simply remarking that the thread should be taken up in one of the existing ones and closing the thread would have been fine. What other posts aren't we seeing?

You are missing a lot of threads. The ones that are only rants are personal insults get deleted... This is also about the 5th thread I have deleted on this subject. And yes, I do CHOOSE which ones get deleted. That's my job, get used to it. I'm sorry, this isn't a Democracy.

	16-12-2001 06:09									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Frankly, I don't care what people think. I'm not here to make everybody like me. I'm here to do a job. And if people don't like it... their problem, not mine. I'm not going to spend every waking minute organizing the general forum for you. If people are too lazy to even to bother to check page 2 to see if a thread is already available on a problem... that's their problem. Yes, there are some big issues about Civ III. But when I receive complaints from members or, I see a topic that already has multiple threads about it, and the new thread adds NOTHING to the discussion, I will continue to delete/close them.

Allow me to apologize for humbly suggesting something that might make this forum better. It appears I overstepped my bounds...

You seem to be taking some of the criticism directed toward the game or the forum a little personally. I've seen that happen before (most recently on PlanetBaldursgate. Not sure I want to see it happen again...

	16-12-2001 06:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Venger Oh my! Here to do a job... boy you do like that Moderator badge don't you...

Your opinion... You have no clue how much of my free time I give to this site. I never asked for the job.

quote: But you're here to do a job!

Yep... I am here to do a job. I'm a moderator, not your personal servant.

quote: So are you going to delete every thread but the primogeniture of every topic? Thought not.

When in my opinion, I see that an issue has gone beyond beating a dead horse, and that there are already multiple threads on a subject... I will continue to use my judgement and delete them. You and I can continue to disagree on who's right, but it is a matter of opinion.

quote: Quit trying to cover your ass with delete/close, because your answer was simply DELETE. No one has questioned closing threads, we question having them disappear off the face of the earth.

I close or delete threads based on my judgement. I'm sorry you don't agree. And as far as covering my ass... you are assuming that I actually care what you think... I don't. I do my job and I know people aren't going to like it.

	16-12-2001 06:17									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ming I have not hid my actions. I responded the minute I saw the complaint.

Did they teach accepting responsibility at your school? Cause you suck at it. I DELETED THE POST is how it is done.

quote: However, I'm not going to waste my time every time I close or delete a thread.

Like the time the poster wasted thinking his voice would be heard on that topic...

quote: When questions come up, I always respond when I see them... But I report to the admin here, not you.

Yeah, cause you have a job to do...

quote: You are missing a lot of threads.

I imagine this will be news to many of us.

quote: The ones that are only rants are personal insults get deleted...

Translated: going on and on about your game dislikes will get it deleted (rant), going on and on about your game likes will not. Wanted that cleared up...

quote: This is also about the 5th thread I have deleted on this subject.

That is the closest to an actual explanation of what happened to the thread as we've gotten - so you DID delete it...

quote: And yes, I do CHOOSE which ones get deleted. That's my job,

And you've got to do it...

quote: get used to it. I'm sorry, this isn't a Democracy.

Must be nice to be a big man in a small world huh...

Venger
P.S. And Terser did NOTHING to elicit the response you gave him. You owe him an apology.

	16-12-2001 06:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Terser You seem to be taking some of the criticism directed toward the game or the forum a little personally. I've seen that happen before (most recently on PlanetBaldursgate. Not sure I want to see it happen again...

HA HA HA HA.... you must have missed all the negative things I have posted about the game. But I will admit that I'm usually polite when I post negative comments about the game. I prefer to be constructive, and not just a whiner.

	16-12-2001 06:20									#24
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If there is anything I have learned on the internet, it's that internet forums are not democracies, and life ain't fair.

	16-12-2001 06:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ming HA HA HA HA.... you must have missed all the negative things I have posted about the game. But I will admit that I'm usually polite when I post negative comments about the game. I prefer to be constructive, and not just a whiner.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Apparently, you hoard all your negative comments for threads like this one. And virtually everything you've posted in this thread thus far has been a whine about whining. A professional moderator would have responded once G-R-A-C-E-F-U-L-L-Y and then let the thread die of neglect. Or he or she would have continued to respond to new posts with a little dignity and tact. At least now I know what to expect of you, Ming.

My part in this little flame thread is over.

	16-12-2001 06:31									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Venger Did they teach accepting responsibility at your school? Cause you suck at it. I DELETED THE POST is how it is done.

Haven't been in school for over 25 years... can't remember that far back I thought I made it very clear that I deleted the thread... I'm sorry I you didn't understand that.

quote: Like the time the poster wasted thinking his voice would be heard on that topic...

If posters follow the rules, they wouldn't have their time wasted

quote: Yeah, cause you have a job to do...

Yep.

quote: I imagine this will be news to many of us.

Probably... gee, moderators close and delete threads, stop the presses

quote: Translated: going on and on about your game dislikes will get it deleted (rant), going on and on about your game likes will not. Wanted that cleared up...

yeah... there are no negative threads allowed Go back and count the number of negative threads... that should clear it up nicely for you.

quote: That is the closest to an actual explanation of what happened to the thread as we've gotten - so you DID delete it...

It took this number of posts by me for you to figure this out?

quote: Must be nice to be a big man in a small world huh...

Again, your opinion... and an incorrect one. Believe me when I say that I care far more about things in real life. My children and family are what matters... what happens here is trivial at best.
I have a real life.
Venger

quote: P.S. And Terser did NOTHING to elicit the response you gave him. You owe him an apology.

Looking back, maybe it was a tad harsh. But it does seem that everybody wants to have things done for them. Maybe he should contact the Admin and offer it up as a suggestion, and volunteer to do it. That's how things work around here.

Oh, and maybe you should apologize for your insults... nah... thought so...

	16-12-2001 06:34									#27
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Ming, with the greatest of respect for you, your position here and the fact that "it's your ball and you can do what you like with it", I'd just like to point out that you're a mod.

In my humble opinion this lumbers - yes 'lumbers' - you with three responsibilities:

1) You've got to remain the peace, keep things moving, ensure that no one get's out of control or ruins anyone elses fun. Whatever that may mean.

2) Behave as a role model. You're the diplomat and should be seen as such. As a mod you have a responsibility to behave and post as you want others to.

3) You have to put up with the fact that yours is a thankless position that will rarely bring any reward. You will always be the odd one out, you'll always walk that fine line between normality and people resenting you. But, that's the nature of the 'job'.

Incidentally, and very truthfully, I am an administrator for a forum from a year or so ago. Several hundred members and a healthy posting ratio. I had to appoint mods and oversee everything, so I do know the position you are in ... but I also know that when *YOU* get vexxed you are not permitted the luxury of letting it show.

	16-12-2001 07:01									#28
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quote: Sigh.... This subject is already being discussed in the Apoltyon Forum... feel free to post your comments there... where complaints belong. Don't do it here in the general civ III forum. If you do it again, you will get a vacation.

Now, you see ... this is a perfect example.

I had no idea that Venger's thread was of this nature, nor the fact that it included you. Had I, then 'yes', i would have posted here.

Now, not wishing to trawl through every conceivable thread to see if any had got close to something I quickly wanted to point out, I made a post.

It wasn't offensive ... infact, i thought it was quite restrained and freindly. There was nothing aggressive in it, I was merely trying to raise your attention to your obvious frustration.

Your commenst to me were unwarranted and curt. I actually feel somewhat taken aback and my desire to be friendly is waning.

	16-12-2001 07:11									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kolyana Your commenst to me were unwarranted and curt. I actually feel somewhat taken aback and my desire to be friendly is waning.

Feel free to point out why my post seemed insulting to you.
I simply stated the facts and added the traditional don't do it again or face the penality.

So if you think that was insulting... your problem, not mine.

	16-12-2001 07:27									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ming So if you think that was insulting... your problem, not mine.

This is dismissive and quite simply says "I don't care what you're thinking".

quote: Originally posted by Ming Sigh.... This subject is already being discussed in the Apoltyon Forum... feel free to post your comments there... where complaints belong. Don't do it here in the general civ III forum. If you do it again, you will get a vacation.

This is talking to me like I'm a 13 year old spoiled brat. I'm not.

I expect both passages from somewhat younger, more immature posters .. but not from a family man with the heady responsibility of modship.

You also completely ignored my valid points in my previous thread, which suggests that you don't agree and don't care.

Now, at this juncture I'm going to point this out:

* You're a mod. You have a big stick that says MODERATOR on it. I don't have a stick at all. You can beat me all you like and there is bugger all I can do about it.

I've tangled with mods in other forums. Essentially, if they're power hungry, on an ego trip, keen to point out their admin superiority and not open to honest suggestions, then there is NOTHING I can do about it. I know that.

I'm not here to question you, the rules or anything else. In fact, from now on I'm going to shut my mouth and not care.

You've made it clear that my views are not welcome, valid or of any interest to you. So, frankly, fine. Have it your way.

You win. Now, go beat that stick up on some poor other newbie who walks in and asks the wrong question.