16-12-2001 04:18									#1
	The future of the EU Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Whaddya think? What shape will the EU eventually take?

	16-12-2001 04:32									#2
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-Military integration and confederation is my guess. For one thing, almost all of the EU is going to be in NATO.

	16-12-2001 04:37									#3
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Austria and Sweden are never going to be in NATO

	16-12-2001 04:38									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek Austria and Sweden are never going to be in NATO

But my point is the military capability of the portion that will be in NATO will already be integrated, so it will make sense for them to do the same thing within the EU.

	16-12-2001 04:44									#5
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The EU will become a banana. No seriously it won´t go too far. Spain and Italy differ in politics than Germany or any of the rest of the EU. Spain and Italy are mainly right-wing conservative. While countries like Germany are socialist.

	16-12-2001 04:49									#6
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Actually, there isn't that large of an overlap right now. I probably can't list all of the countries, but I'll try:

EU: Ireland, Britain, Spain, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Greece, Austria, Italy, Portugal, plus one more that I don't know(15)

NATO: US, Canada, Iceland, Britain, Denmark, Norway, Spain, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal (19)

Overlap: Britain, Spain, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Portugal, Italy (11)

EU-Only: Ireland, Sweden, Austria, and the one I don't know

NATO-Only (that are still in Europe): Iceland, Norway, Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary

Countries that are up for admission:

NATO: Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia

EU: Malta, Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Turkey

	16-12-2001 04:52									#7
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Actually I'd argue that that's a pretty big overlap especially when you consider the up-for-admission countries.

	16-12-2001 04:56									#8
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I have serious doubts about whether military integration can last (even though I voted for it since it's gonna happen...I just don't know if it will last or be any good). Look at all the Yugoslavia wars: it was primarily US military power that was brought to force in "NATO" operations...the British helped too. Our European friends really dropped the ball on this one...they proved that they are still unable to deal with situations using their own military. A standing EU force is now being developed (and said to start operations as an EU force this weekend), but I have serious doubts about their effectiveness at the end of the day. There is no true "EU Identity" as there is a "US identity," so nationalism will play a significant role in any EU operations, thereby hampering their effectiveness. They will have a pretty large task in securing Afghanistan, and this will be an important test for the EU. If they aren't able to get the job done, expect a halt to any integration beyond monetary.

	16-12-2001 04:57									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek EU: Ireland, Britain, Spain, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Greece, Austria, Italy, Portugal, plus one more that I don't know(15)

Stefu can tell you the other one.

	16-12-2001 05:04									#10
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quote: EU: Ireland, Britain, Spain, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Greece, Austria, Italy, Portugal, plus one more that I don't know(15)

Then again, you have an obvious death wish.

	16-12-2001 05:04									#11
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Also: the EU will be "borrowing" NATO facilities for its fighting force since the EU is deficient in military infrastructure.

The countries that don't overlap are quite important, however. Turkey is probably the most important one. The EU has been really *****y about Turkey admission, despite the inevitable benefit of projecting European power and influence into the Middle East, and would also be a significant stabilizing force for Turkey. They're just being *****es about the death penalty, that's all.

Sweden and Austria are both technically "neutral" countries, which poses significant questions in terms of EU-NATO cooperation.

Norway stays out of the EU so that it can bypass is maritime rules.

Oh, and Cyprus is also up for admission into the EU. That should be fun!

Germany is socialist? Hardly! They are about as socialist as the United States is.

	16-12-2001 05:07									#12
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OK, OK, Finland too! Stefu: which EU countries are participating in the Euro? I know that Britain, and Denmark are definitely not, and I know that France, Germany, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg are, but I don't know about the rest.

	16-12-2001 05:10									#13
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Britain, Sweden and Denmark are the damnable countries slacking from their integratory duties.

	16-12-2001 05:11									#14
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Stefu and Dolphin: obviously, you didn't see my signature

	16-12-2001 05:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek Also: the EU will be "borrowing" NATO facilities for its fighting force since the EU is deficient in military infrastructure. The countries that don't overlap are quite important, however. Turkey is probably the most important one. The EU has been really *****y about Turkey admission, despite the inevitable benefit of projecting European power and influence into the Middle East, and would also be a significant stabilizing force for Turkey. They're just being *****es about the death penalty, that's all. Sweden and Austria are both technically "neutral" countries, which poses significant questions in terms of EU-NATO cooperation.

I don't think that the two bodies will integrate; I just think that the overlap countries' militaries will start to form two categories: NATO troops and EU troops. It's easier to integrate your forces into the EU if you've had experience with NATO.

	16-12-2001 05:15									#16
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quote: Turkey is probably the most important one. The EU has been really *****y about Turkey admission

Is Turkey part of Europe? I guess you could class is as such, after all FIFA/UEFA and the Eurovision song contest organisers seem to think so. Perhaps Israel can join too!

Morroco's application was refused immediately due to not being on the European continent.

	16-12-2001 05:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek Stefu and Dolphin: obviously, you didn't see my signature

Just try it, punk.

	16-12-2001 05:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin quote: Turkey is probably the most important one. The EU has been really *****y about Turkey admission Is Turkey part of Europe? I guess you could class is as such, after all FIFA/UEFA and the Eurovision song contest organisers seem to think so. Perhaps Israel can join too! Morroco's application was refused immediately due to not being on the European continent.

Turkey has Istanbul which is in Europe.

As for Morocco? But North Africa is closer to Europe than subsaharan Africa culturally, historically and ethnically.

	16-12-2001 05:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Turkey has Istanbul which is in Europe.

So the European border is defined as being at the Bosphorous, and not the Turkish border.

Let me rephrase, is Turkey classed as a European country. I didn't think it was.

	16-12-2001 05:27									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek Germany is socialist? Hardly! They are about as socialist as the United States is.

On your standards it isn´t socialist.

	16-12-2001 05:46									#21
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Part of Turkey is on the European continent, and Turks identify themselves much more closely with Europe than they do with the rest of the middle east. Beyond that, the EU need not be so picky as to restrict it so much by geography. I think that there could be a strong case made for Morocco or Tunisia to be allowed into the EU (their main problem is that they are not democracies) in terms of cultural similarity to Europe.

Britain and Ireland are not part of continental Europe, but they are in the EU.

So what is your definition of socialism? Sweden is legitimately classified as socialist because of the extensive state intervention in the economy, but Germany should not because it, like the United States, relies on free enterprise as the main source of economic growth.

In terms of a fighting force, you should realize that there has never been an integrated NATO fighting force. All military operations carried out by NATO are ad-hoc, and depend entirely on what each country is willing to commit to the particular situation. There is no standing NATO military, and cooperation has been quite difficult in the past. Allegiances would supposedly be to the Union, but fewer than 2% of all europeans have ever identified themselves politically as primarily European. Nationalism will cause the force to be extremely fractious and ineffective.

	16-12-2001 05:51									#22
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Yeah, Tunisia is the most developed country in Africa after South Africa... and it has an extensive middle class. The country has fought for women´s rights and is an Islamic country. I agree Tunisia should join the EU, but Morocco... better give it a second thought.

quote: So what is your definition of socialism? Sweden is legitimately classified as socialist because of the extensive state intervention in the economy, but Germany should not because it, like the United States, relies on free enterprise as the main source of economic growth.

Well you have a point. But still there will be too much disagreement because countries like Spain and Italy wouldn't get along with the others.

	16-12-2001 05:59									#23
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I don't know about that...after all, The U.S. has Texas and South Carolina living in union with Oregon and Hawaii.

	16-12-2001 06:02									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek I don't know about that...after all, The U.S. has Texas and South Carolina living in union with Oregon and Hawaii.

They don't run their own militaries. The US Army is their to supress any uprising. The EU is just unrealistic.

And Ronald Reagan made a joke about Oregon when he was running... he said one of the lawmakers from their wanted to rename the state to Oreagan.

	16-12-2001 06:07									#25
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Hoek: Those aren't the extremes, imo. . . The extremes would be Alabama and Vermont. . .

	16-12-2001 06:10									#26
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quote: They don't run their own militaries. The US Army is their to supress any uprising. The EU is just unrealistic.

That wasn't the point you were making. You were saying that conservative countries like Spain and Italy could not be in a political union with liberal countries like Denmark and Sweden. The countries' political leaning would be far less of an obstacle to political union than nationalism, which did not exist in U.S. states. In terms of the military, you should note that the U.S. did not have a standing army until Jefferson's first term. Until that point, states maintained militias, but there was no unified, standing fighting force for the U.S. Why would the U.S. supress European uprising, and why would there be European uprising if it was voluntary union?

quote: And Ronald Reagan made a joke about Oregon when he was running... he said one of the lawmakers from their wanted to rename the state to Oreagan.

G-you are quite funny today. How does this relate at all to the discussion?

	16-12-2001 06:40									#27
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BANANA WINS

The Eu

	16-12-2001 06:50									#28
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The EU is just one big banana.

But seriously, why should Tunisia or Turkey be in the EU. Neither one of those countries are entirely European. Heck Tunisia is entirely in Africa.

Has Britain decided whether or not to change to the Euro yet?

	16-12-2001 06:50									#29
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So are you guys going to let the Russians in. And if you do, are you only going to allow Russia west of the Urals to join.

	16-12-2001 06:51									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek That wasn't the point you were making. You were saying that conservative countries like Spain and Italy could not be in a political union with liberal countries like Denmark and Sweden. The countries' political leaning would be far less of an obstacle to political union than nationalism, which did not exist in U.S. states. In terms of the military, you should note that the U.S. did not have a standing army until Jefferson's first term. Until that point, states maintained militias, but there was no unified, standing fighting force for the U.S. Why would the U.S. supress European uprising, and why would there be European uprising if it was voluntary union? G-you are quite funny today. How does this relate at all to the discussion?

It is worth noting that the states each do have theirown military. That each state has its own militia was built into the bill of rights. AFter the civil war the idea was greatly dowjnplayed. But the idea still exists in the national guard.