17-12-2001 02:45									#1
	What will make MOO3 different? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ok, we've seen that the Ethos system has been cut. We've also seen that a major design feature has been changed from MOO2, space travel is now down "spacelanes".

So if I already have Space Empires 4, or I'm trying to decide on a space game to get, why should I get/wait for MOO3?
Respectfuly,

Big Dave

	17-12-2001 04:02									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'd say you should check out the resources I gave Yolky on his thread, as well as the other threads here. If none of that stuff convinces you, nothing will...we're trying for nothing short of a revolutionary step forward in the genre.

Feel free to go read and then report back on your thoughts...

	14-05-2002 00:10									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok, since the breaking news of Infogreed's "new and improved" strategy to "get the product out the door NOW" I thought that we might revisit this thread.

	14-05-2002 01:00									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This is my big q too.

	14-05-2002 02:22									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Space Empires IV is micromanagement hell. If nothing else, the way migration is handled automatically in MOO3 takes a big chunk of µmgmt out of the picture. They have promised decent governors, too. I think that is believeable.

All it needs is a non-crappy empire AI to make it stand head and shoulders above the games going all the way back to CTP2. That's not setting the bar too high.

	14-05-2002 02:40									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

At this point we're not even asking for a great game.

We're asking for a game without major bugs, reasonable interface and the general mood of the previous Moo offerings.

Is even that too much to ask? Time will tell.

	14-05-2002 15:30									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Straybow Space Empires IV is micromanagement hell. If nothing else, the way migration is handled automatically in MOO3 takes a big chunk of µmgmt out of the picture. They have promised decent governors, too. I think that is believeable. All it needs is a non-crappy empire AI to make it stand head and shoulders above the games going all the way back to CTP2. That's not setting the bar too high.

You have ministers to relieve the MM in SEIV. Colonization is as easy as falling off a log.

And as for non-crappy AI, if Firaxis first two attempts are any sign of what we can expect from another Infograme company, I won't be holding my breath. And the AI in SEIV is user configurable on top of that. More like CTP2 than Civ....

	17-05-2002 02:45									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I played with the 100 turn demo extensively. I ended up disabling the ministers one by one. They were idiots. I'm not aware of any alternate AI settings.

The publisher has nothing to do with the coding of the AI. MOO3 is getting tweaked on QS's time, not InFrogGrames' time.

	19-05-2002 13:32									#9
	Minister settings Increase the size of your Attachments

The ministers are stupid, untill you edit the text files that control them. Remember my reference to CTP2? Also, like CTP and CTP2 there is a large, active modding community out there. There is a Babylon 5 mod, numerous Star Trek races, and a number of others from various Sci-Fi books, media, etc.

Big Dave

PS It's all Infogrammes time untill they're making a profit on it, i.e. it's shipped out the door. Therefore, the publisher has a tremendous impact on the AI, along with all other facets of the finished product. Granted the author can always patch it after shipping, but we know how problematical THAT can be.


Edit: Added PS

	20-05-2002 03:16									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Well actually some of the things they cut from the game is what made most people like it, IFP (although I hate that a lot of peopel liked it) and Ethos (made the game unique). Removing the Ethos and IFP actually has mainstreamed the game. So you can probably buy SE4 Gold and have just as much fun with that as in Moo 3. However I personally would wait for Moo3 and buy that. Se4 is a bit....... ameteur although it is still a good game.

Well to compair that to moo3 is. Supposidly moo3 is going to have a better diplomacy system (one like Alpha Centauri maybe?) however they seem to have the same automation. Combat for them depends if you like TBS or RTS. Also customizability is a great factor. Moo3 is as it is and SE4 has mods and you can add plenty of things to your liking. You will probably have to play both to see the real differences.

	20-05-2002 04:37									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The only thing I can see that's more "amaturish" about SEIV than MOO3 is the graphics. I can't speak for anyone else, but as long as the graphics are good enough to easily tell the difference between different units, planets, stars, and other phenomena then I'll take good game play over eye candy any day that ends in "y".

Big Dave

	20-05-2002 16:21									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The problem with SE IV is that it is so heavy on the MM I get tired just thinking about it. The grapics are more than adequate. But the ministers are pretty useless, and I couldn't be bothered tweaking them myself.

	20-05-2002 21:34									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Big Dave The only thing I can see that's more "amaturish" about SEIV than MOO3 is the graphics. I can't speak for anyone else, but as long as the graphics are good enough to easily tell the difference between different units, planets, stars, and other phenomena then I'll take good game play over eye candy any day that ends in "y". Big Dave

Well its not just the graphics. The AI could use tweaking as well. Plus the non inclusion of tcp/ip support in the origional game. They should quit their day job and go full time for their next game. Because the main reason for it being ameteur is that they made it on their free time not because of how the game looks or plays.

	20-05-2002 22:07									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by AnubisWoD Well its not just the graphics. The AI could use tweaking as well. Plus the non inclusion of tcp/ip support in the origional game. They should quit their day job and go full time for their next game. Because the main reason for it being ameteur is that they made it on their free time not because of how the game looks or plays.

What they shoul do is strike a deal with a publisher who'll deliver their game to the shelves, as opposed to that little Internet outfit they're dealing with now. That's by far the most amateurish thing 'bout Malfador.

	20-05-2002 22:20									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper What they shoul do is strike a deal with a publisher who'll deliver their game to the shelves, as opposed to that little Internet outfit they're dealing with now. That's by far the most amateurish thing 'bout Malfador.

That and their website is worse than mine for my Counter-Strike clan, lol.

I BET that now that moo3 is coming out they would get published by a "better" company, so long as they asked. Who knows they may be getting offers and just have a contract with shrapnel that forbids leaving.

	20-05-2002 22:40									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

moo3 will be differnt to me as the only space games i have played are: smac, altho that is more civ than 4x space, moo2, and moo0.5, starlords, i dloaded a while ago, and got bored fairly quickly.

what makes moo3 a 5x game now?

	20-05-2002 22:44									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by tishco moo3 will be differnt to me as the only space games i have played are: smac, altho that is more civ than 4x space, moo2, and moo0.5, starlords, i dloaded a while ago, and got bored fairly quickly. what makes moo3 a 5x game now?

The "fifth" X is just hype. Its still a 4x game. Supposidly the 5th X is experiance. Which probably means the AI adapts to how you play which is a game play quality and no kind of X. What is retarded though is they have written "x's" in to the story to try to make the title make sense with the story. Its kinda strange. They name it the fifth x because its supposidly a 5x game, yet they have "x's" for all we know they could have made that title so they can remove the 5th X gameplay element and just say, the 4 xs are the homeworld of races that were destroyed from moo 2 and the 5th x is orion. Which IS what probably is going to happen.

	21-05-2002 06:56									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well, let's see here.

TCP/IP play is fixed in the Gold Edition

SIEV is a 2 man show and they still release with fewer bugs than the "big" companies.

The two members of Malfador spend their time writing the game, not hyping it, so their Web site is not all slick and "markety" looking.

They (Malfador) listen to their customers and make changes accordingly.

What part of the above is bad?

As for Shrapnel, their games rock. This is where wargaming meets computer games. They're (on average) $10 cheaper than "off the shelf" games, they maintain their own BBS, and patch archives, unlike many other game companies. What do you have against the "little guy" making some space for themselves in this world of corporate glut?

	21-05-2002 07:23									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by AnubisWoD Well its not just the graphics. The AI could use tweaking as well. Plus the non inclusion of tcp/ip support in the origional game. They should quit their day job and go full time for their next game. Because the main reason for it being ameteur is that they made it on their free time not because of how the game looks or plays.

Actually your mistaken there. Malfador Machinations is a one man outfit that has been self employed since around the time SE:IV was released. Allowing the game to be as moddable as it is also somewhat limits how hard coded the AI can be. Most developers can "cheat" by scripting their AI or letting it spy on it's opponent's, but with a 100% moddable AI you don't have that sort of luxury.

Different game design...

	21-05-2002 07:28									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper What they shoul do is strike a deal with a publisher who'll deliver their game to the shelves, as opposed to that little Internet outfit they're dealing with now. That's by far the most amateurish thing 'bout Malfador.

Heh, do you know that Shrapnel and Malfador have been approached by 15 seperate publishers and at least 10 retail chains to go retail? However all retail would do is pay them quarterly (at best), rip them off with expensive marketing costs, and pay them next to nothing per copy after returns. The extra exposure you get is not worth it.

Shrapnel has been in retail before in previous incarnations and we know of what we speak. Retail works for games that sell a LOT of copies, but games that don't just end up bankrupting the developers in question.

As far as rinky dink outfit you will probably want to know that we are one of the largest shippers in our home state of North Carolina, larger then several large corporations based in the state. SE:IV has sold copies to almost every country around the globe and has sold more copies over the internet than about every other publisher who has tried.

We aren't on the internet because we can't do retail, we're on the internet because we reject retail.

	21-05-2002 08:16									#21
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by rdarnese Heh, do you know that Shrapnel and Malfador have been approached by 15 seperate publishers and at least 10 retail chains to go retail? However all retail would do is pay them quarterly (at best), rip them off with expensive marketing costs, and pay them next to nothing per copy after returns. The extra exposure you get is not worth it.

So what you're saying is if I give you $25 you'll let me wash your car?

Big Dave

	21-05-2002 17:16									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by rdarnese We aren't on the internet because we can't do retail, we're on the internet because we reject retail.

That's all very nice, but that decision has cost Malfador a lot of sales. My, for instance - I wouldn't buy stuff on the Internet if my life depended on it, much less an entertainment product such as SE IV.

Still, since you are here, and seem to represent Shrapnel: is there any way to buy from you that doesn't involve handing over my CC details? I'd be willing to trust you guys by sending cash in an envelope, but I understand that postal workers in the US regard that as bonus pay.

	21-05-2002 19:16									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Actually your mistaken. Malfador would have seen some increase in sales due to being in retail but they would have been at 1/20th to 1/10th the amount that they get per sale with us, plus then having to pay marketing costs and waiting 3-6 months to get paid.

To make the same money in retail they would have had to sell 500,000 units in retail. There is no way that MOO3 or SE:IV could have sold that many in retail.

Oh we except checks and money orders. Just mark that as your payment option in your order. Your order will go on holand and as soon as we get your money order or check you will get your game.

	22-05-2002 02:47									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Since we're not privy to your business agreements with Malfador we really have no choise but to belive your argument - so we'll take it as a fact that they do ten times as much per copy sold with you than thy'd get in retail. (Although, if the deal is so amazing, I can't help to wonder why we don't see a landslide of sub-top-tens queueing to do business with you. Seems most "small" games still think retail is the way to go). But that does not change the fact that they'd actually get more sales if the were retail as well. Enough of them to outweight the associated costs? I dunno. But I certainly suspect so, at least in the overseas market. Retail eats bulk shipment costs only - when I order my own copy, I'll probably have to pay upward of $100 to get my hands on the game with shipping and all - and that'd be steep for an AAA game, let alone a budget one.

Still, being a helpless Space 4x TBS junkie, I certainly feel tempted. Could you be so kind to provide an URL where you spell out the administrative details for non-card customers? Thank you.

	22-05-2002 03:47									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A lot of the developers who end up going with publishers do so for funding from the publishers. The problem is then they are at the whim of the publisher then as to how the final game ends up. Plus they will probably have to do the same thing again since, in most cases, they will not see royalties and if they do they will be 3-6 months off, if that. It's a cycle many developers get trapped in. Then once their primary franchise becomes stale they are forced to work on god awful games in order to gain funding.

Let me put it this way. About 3 weeks ago we spoke with a rather large publisher, who will have a significant presence at E3, and we told them the numbers we did with SE:IV and they were SHOCKED. They couldn't believe how much Malfador made and they couldn't believe how many units we had sold to date of that product. In fact they were talking to us about taking some of our products into Worldwide retail. We may work some sort of deal with them, but to be honest it won't be for our top selling games as that would be silly for us and out developers.

Your right about the European issue, but we have several online vendors you can use as an alternative. If we went anywhere for retail it would be overseas.

And as far as other developers signing on, well just keep you eyes out for PR in the next coming month .

Here is the URL for our store. Just use Check or Money order for paying method instead of Credit Card.

www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

	22-05-2002 06:42									#26
	Remove this text

Speaking from Europe, I can say I ordered SE:IV online last year (credit card) and it came fast and cheap enough.

What you have to do is to rely on a few good magazines to spread the news.
If you want to know, you've been highly praised in the French mag "Ravage". They gave your URL, told to play the demo, so I did and I bought the game.

Their e-mail is ravage@histecoll.com ,just in case (I don't roam the net searching for games...better find them in my mags). They are specialized in strategy games (unlike other game-mags). Ask for Mr Teophile Monnier!

	22-05-2002 06:48									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah I know that guy, he also runs www.net4war.com that has an online store that sells our stuff.

	22-05-2002 18:38									#28
	Tired of ads?

I assume you are from shrapnel. You guys should seriously try to get the game se iv shipped to stores. Or a future space empires game (se 5 maybe). That game would definately see a increase in sales and populatity. Maybe if you put something like pc gamers editors choice and on the cover something to the effect of it being the most customizable space strategy game that would attract even more to it.

	22-05-2002 18:52									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah but I don't think you guys get it. Most games do not make developers that much money in retail. Retail makes the PUBLISHERS money and guarantees that the developer will get funding for their next game.

However we are in business to give our developers the ability to make the game they want to make and to make the most money from that possible.

We just can't make the money in retail we can make online. I know for many folks that makes little sense, but that's because you haven't been involved in the inside of the industry like we have. We have been in retail, we prefer it this way, as a publisher and as a developer.

	22-05-2002 23:33									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by rdarnese Yeah but I don't think you guys get it. Most games do not make developers that much money in retail. Retail makes the PUBLISHERS money and guarantees that the developer will get funding for their next game..............(edit)....................................... We have been in retail, we prefer it this way, as a publisher and as a developer.

Exactly, thanks for being so right . I myself don't like to use my credit card over the net so the info you gave moominparatrooper about Postal Orders will be taken advantage of very soon. I've got the demo of SEIV and liked what i tried - so i'll buy!
I think you are doing what's best for your buisness and game development in general.
I think if we, the consumer end of the software chain ,want to see quality games come out in the future then we should support people like yourselves.
A nasty trend has started to spread through the big game publishers in recent times it seems. In some ways market forces have probably forced their hands, but i find it inexcusable to be expected to pay to be a Beta-tester time after time.
I find it suspicous that when a 'big' title comes out, you will rarely find a bad review in the majority of game mags(i've stopped buying them.) and review sites.
I find it worrying that sometimes now a Demo is not released(So you can't test before you buy) and this seems to be becoming acceptable.
I've been buying games since the early 80's onwards, and i find it a breath of fresh air to see a company like Shrapnel doing well in these murky times! Thanks for being smart on what a gamer really wants and needs(even when they don't know it!)