18-12-2001 06:07									#1
	Paradrop Problem. Support Apolyton

I've had a problem with my units with the drop pods special ability. Every time I try to drop into an undefended city, I get the "air defense in ___ prevent airdrop." Oddly enough, there are no air imrovements in the city, any neighboring cities, there's no intercepters nearby, nothing. This has happened in my last three games, and it's annoying to have to build the XenoEmpathy Dome, drop my units onto a patch of fungus, and waltz on in.

Can anyone help?
-Teeks

	19-12-2001 03:19									#2
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I can't remember for sure if this is a bug that occurs under other circumstances, or only if you don't have the latest patches installed. If you don't have the patches, installing them may help this problem, as well as some others. If not, sorry, can't remember.

The patches should be availabe from the AC main page, here at 'poly.

	19-12-2001 04:36									#3
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The patches does not seem to cure it as my Smax is fully patched. I am experiencing the same bug in a MP game. I was airdropping just fine but now suddenly paradrops don't work against any enemy as they are all stated to have air defenses. It is oh such a pain to have to hit a regarrisoned base 3 times while your drop unit walks into a attack position.

I don't know the cure-- sometimes the bug is there and sometimes it is not.

	19-12-2001 21:47									#4
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I may have spoken too soon about the ineffectiveness of the patch. I experienced the bug on my laptop but when I played a later turn (same MP game) at home, I was able to paradrop just fine. I had fully patched the game on both machines but perhaps sonething went wrong on the laptop. I have therefore downloaded the Smax patch again and before the day is out, I should have a turn where paradropping is possible (to try on my laptop). If it works, it would mean that the patch (likely) solves this bug and that I had something wrong with my patch files previously . I will report back when I get another opportunity to test this out.

	12-01-2002 00:38									#5
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I believe this message occurs when the base has a aerospace complex built in the base, undefended or not, if they base has an aerospace complex you cannot airdrop. The only way to airdrop close to the base in this case is to land outside of the base zone ... which is I think 1 or 2 squares away from what the land citizens can work.


If there was not a AC previously and now there is... that would explain why you once could. I have seen the AI build AC if I start to airdrop alot.

	12-01-2002 00:55									#6
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I had this problem long ago and the version 2 SMAX patch fixed it. But mrdynamic is correct that, even with the patch, you cannot drop near a base with an aerospace complex.

	12-01-2002 01:27									#7
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I have mentioned this before... And I'm sure it's well-known to most SMAC players... But I just think it's so cool! A unit with drop pods can be dropped from an air transport regardless of air defenses, and attack without penalty the same turn! And air transports are pretty cheap...

	12-01-2002 01:44									#8
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I didn't know that. Is that regarded as a cheat?

	12-01-2002 02:06									#9
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I've never seen it listed as a cheat anywhere, and I can't see why it would be. I'm sure the reason air (and ground) transports have half their normal moves is to keep it somewhat under control. Now that I mention it, ground transports can carry a unit to an attack in the same manner. So a normal infantry unit can move one square (in a transport), and still attack at full strength. And a rover could attack twice, etc.

	12-01-2002 04:11									#10
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Perhaps some people might think it might be a cheat if it is possible (as it might well be,) to unload anything (with or without drop pods) while outside a base by using the Unload command.

I don't know for sure about NJ or Chopper transports (I can easily test it though), but with a Gravship Transport, you can unload an unwanted passenger en route with that command. I don't recall if you can move either the Unloaded unit or the transport (although I think you can) after the unload. I believe that ability is contrary to some of the documentation, at least w/r the Gravship, which could indicate a bug. When it comes to unloading drop units however, it seems perfectly reasonable to be able to do that, whether or not it was intended by the designers.

	12-01-2002 04:30									#11
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I know for certain that you can't unload a non-drop pod equipped unit from an air transport in anything but a base or airbase square. If you try, you'll get the "Units without drop pods may only be unloaded in a base or airbase" message. This is most certainly NOT a bug. And you can't load any unit on to an air transport in the field, unfortunately...
It's worth noting that attempting to land a loaded air transport on a carrier deck has some strange results. (It's been a while since I messed around with this stuff, so I may be a little off.) But I'm pretty sure that if the carrier transport is not full the air transported unit will be loaded to the carrier, but the air transport itself will not land on the carrier. However, by ending an air transports move over a carrier deck, it DOES count as refueling the air transport. The carrier transport must be "full" to avoid transferring any air transported units to the carrier deck. And there is no way to get a unit from a carrier to an air transport at sea. What this effectively means is that you can stage air transport drop operations from the sea, but it requires a lot of planning. And in no case can you exceed your total transport capacity. I believe this was the only way the designers could do this without having the problem of a transport loading a transport loading a transport etc. Confused enough yet? Check it out for yourself...

Last edited by vitamin j on 12-01-2002 at 05:18

	12-01-2002 18:32									#12
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quote: vitj: I know for certain that you can't unload a non-drop pod equipped unit from an air transport in anything but a base or airbase square

Wrong.
I am just testing it in parallel while I write.
As jdm said, with ANY air chassis, you can always issue the Unload command to the transport unit, over ANY tile.
(the command can be issued from the game menu, or the right-click popup over the unit, or with the Shift+U shortcut)

quote: vitj: If you try, you'll get the "Units without drop pods may only be unloaded in a base or airbase" message.

Wrong.
The exact message you get is:
"Units aboard air transports may only be unloaded at bases and airbases"
There is no mention at all about drop ability.


I was referring about this bug more or less at the time of Helium Pond's possible cheats Compendium thread.

the bug lies indeed in the fact that you get different messages for the same operation when you take different paths to obtain it.

If you try to activate the transported unit, be it using the Activate Unit popub box, or attempting to select it in the unit box at screen bottom, you get hte message reporte above. This shows that in the game there are instrunctions and messages coded to forbid that operation.
But then the game lets you order the transporting unit to unload its payload...
Like if you order to the troop "Jump down!" "No sir! I can't"
Then "OK, pilot, kick this coward out of your aircraft!"
"aiiieeeeeghh!!!"

This would lend evidence enough to the supporters of the bug version who ask to forbid this action. Of course, a more mature and sensible approach will allow the players of each different pbem to agree beforehand whether they want to allow this feature or not, in *their* match...

The unload can take place even when the air unit has consumed all of its movement points, just select the *transport* from the map and issue the Unload command.
The landed unit cam move exactly as if it was starting his move fromthat tile.

ALL THIS ABSOLUTELY REGARDLESS OF THE DROP ABILIT OF THE TRANSPORTED UNIT.
With even the catch that if you try to use the 'I' shortcut for issuing the airdrop command, you get the message that the unit has already moved this turn!

	12-01-2002 19:28									#13
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Well, that's interesting. I'm definitely going to test it again myself, anyway. I remember trying and failing to unload plain units from an air transport in the field, and succeeding when the units had drop pods. That doesn't mean it happened that way...

	12-01-2002 22:18									#14
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MariOne is right again, as usual, with one exception in the tests I just did... When the air transport had used all its moves, I could not get the game to select the transport or the transported unit by any means. No direct click, no right click menu, no shift-U keyboard command, no Activate unit keyboard or menu command, nothing. But I would receive the message MariOne quoted above. If the air transport had even one move remaining, I could unload any unit using the unload command with no message given. So I would conclude that there are definitely some bugs in the air transport system! As MariOne suggested, advance agreement on this issue should be resolved for MP games.
For my part, I would definitely argue to allow it. The use of naval transports in this exact fashion is an accepted part of the game, and they don't require staging from a base or airbase. Also, a fission cruiser transport has as many moves as a fusion powered air transport, and carries four times as many units. If you employed fuel nanocells, you could get one extra move for each leg of the journey, still less than a cruiser with the Maritime Control Center. I'd be interested to hear any arguments against...

	14-01-2002 20:51									#15
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I also ran a test to check my memory on the Unload command from an air transport while en route; for the record, I used SMAX V2 in this test with a fusion NJ transport and artie passenger. As has already been noted, it is indeed possible to unload a unit in the middle of its transport. While I was at it, I thought I'd see if it would reload the unit so I could finish the transports move and see if I could unload it then, to check out VitaminJ's problem selecting the unit after it had used up its moves. However, when I issued the Load command I got a popup that I don't think I had never seen before:
--Popup Title -- Operations Director
--Popup Text -- Air transports can load passengers only at bases and airbases.
--Popup Option1 -- Cancel Sentry/Board orders.
--Popup Option2 -- Issue Sentry/Board orders anyway.
--Popup OK-Button -- OK
Sure enough, it lets you issue the Load command anyway, but the unit stays behind when the transport goes away. I wonder what would have happened if there had been an additional air transport already in that tile from the prior turn - would the passenger have boarded that transport?

Back to the test, I reloaded and this time sent the air transport off to the end of its sadly limited range, stopping at an unoccupied (land) tile. I had no problem selecting either the transport or the passenger from the map or moving the passenger. Perhaps VitaminJ was parked on a tile in the open with a pactmate's unit in it as well? Even in that case, they could likely be selected from their homebases' (lower right corner) unit display. Similarly, in another test, I ended the (full-range) move of the transport in a base; I could still take the passenger's movement turn.