19-12-2001 14:33									#1
	Defeating the Guardian in MoO1 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wonder how others go about demolishing the mighty Guardian to get to Orion. The FAQ is a bit lacking in detail on the small fighter recommended except to give the number required as a fucntion of weapon type and attack level. I've found the 50% defeat level tabled to be a bit optimistic without the added extras of manoeuvrability etc.

	19-12-2001 17:51									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I usually wait until fairly late in the game to go after Orion. My weapon of choice is gauss autocannons, paired either with teleporters or high energy focus, so I get first shot. The strategy guide has a table of weapon efficiency (space consumed vs. expected damage dealt out) and the gauss autocannon is the best in most circumstances (and a very good all-around weapon, useful against large or small ships).

	19-12-2001 21:00									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Last game I sent in a fleet of 1800 small ships, each with subspace teleporter and a particle beam.

*zap* 8000 points of damage *no more Guardian*

	20-12-2001 20:13									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You don't say what level you are on as the guardian is stronger as you go up levels. In any event I never go after Orion till I have finished all tech as I want the extra tech from it. At that point you will not have ay trouble killing it. I normally play on hard, small universe and only build large ships (except for the missile defenders (small)) and put in auto blaster/ gauss cannons or pulse phasers, which ever I have along with the high focus energy. The guardian rarely kills anyone at that point.

	23-12-2001 11:48									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hard.

I usually don't build large ships until I get at least Automatic Repair Unit

	23-12-2001 12:54									#6
	Put an end to popups!

I build very few ships until I am ready to grab planets and hold them. I often make one or two large very early with nothing but lasers or gatling to hold the one planet that may be contested till it gets missle bases, then I scrap those old large laser guys. Now I only build missile ships one or two for each planet. Now I just hold on to what I have until late (HIGH Enery Focus), now I go get em. Remember this is small on hard level. Not many planets to get, you have to take them from some one after you get 4-6.

	24-12-2001 12:20									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It seems there's consensus that this is a late game process. It's also interesting to note that most go for the higher tech weapons and larger ships.

In contrast the FAQ/strategy guide recommends small ships because they are thought to be the most economical and efficient for the task. In my particular game (playing as Klackons on Average, Medium universe with 4 races) I was already in a winning position and subdued all the other 3 races. I thought I'd have a crack at the Guardian and consulted the FAQ. With 2143 small fighters (somewhat greater than the stated 50% success number) each just armed with 1 mass driver at attack level 5, the Guardian simply toasted the fleet . The result was the same for 5 consecutive reloads.

To get an idea of what extras on the 2143 fighters would subdue the Guardian, I used Andrew Griffin's nifty ship editor (shiped.exe). From a few trials I found that increasing the maneuvrability (Fusion engine maxed, together with the inertia stabilizer) did the trick.

	24-12-2001 17:20									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Mass drivers don't do enough damage. IIRC the Guardian has regeneration (Advanced Damage Control?). That's why I went with particle beam and subspace teleporters.

Particle beams do an average of 15 points each, and the 'porter gives ships first strike capability.

	24-12-2001 23:00									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Battle Scanner, High Energy Focus and the latest engine and movement item plus the Inertial Stablizer is enough to get the first move, but it does not matter to me as by the time I go there I have only one planet to conquer. I leave it while I finish the tech tree. MY fleet of large ships with pulse phasors or what ever mulitple fire weapons as I can fit is plenty. It does not take many ships. In MOO2 I use only 6 large ships with plasma cannons (earlier in the game as AI will come after it in Moo2).

	24-12-2001 23:15									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Once I have hundreds of med ships and about 10 or X-large ships and a few hundred or thousand small ships I go after the Guardian.

Works for me and its around at the end of mid turn to begining of late turn of the game around tech 60 or so.

Davor

	25-12-2001 12:49									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I would think that making so many ships will slow down the race through the tech tree. I make one or two med ships types with 1 five pack of merc missile or stingers to drive off attackers while the bases kill them. I put one on any planets that comes under attack. I then make one colony type and the rest are large types as I get new armour/weapons or room or engines. I make 10-15 of any one type, so I have 30-50 ships at any one time. Any more than that is wasting resources, that can be put to research. This is on a small universe at hard level. If the universe is larger you will likely need more ships until you get Star gates. I send a fleet of 3-4 types of larges to grab a planet from some Civ and sit on it until it has it shields and bases (12-20 missiles is enough). Then it is on to another planet. From time to time I send a fleet back to a planet to defend so I can destroy all the attackers and they do not escape. Once no new planets are available I replace the colony (sometime you will need one for planet that was depopulated or Orion). I use to make Huge ships late in the game, but it is not required so i went to large as they can be made in one turn, so making a new class to replace an existing one can be done very quickly. After a few battles with each Civ, they have no fleets to worry about. they build new ones, but they can not get a large enough one to sweat. I never (rarely) make peace so they will attack when they get a few ships. If I see they have a fleet sitting some place I will go after it. Blast the fleet and retreat so missle bases are not a big problem. Love those High Energy Focus.

	01-03-2002 06:29									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

hello, i usualy wait till late in the game when i get maulers, load em' on a huge best avalible computers, ecm., ect. w/ a h. energy focus, lightning sheild, and an oricle interface then send 3 mayby 4 of my big gunners, NO MORE GUARDIAN!!!!

	03-03-2002 04:05									#13
	Suffering from ads?

I rarely have the need to beat the guardian to win the game. Recently I had a game where no heavy bombs were available, it was mid late in the game and nobody had them and I had all the other requirements for a wipeout, HEF, teleporters, Gauss Cannons -just needed to destroy missle bases. I took Orion to get the Death Ray, which athough not efficient, does get through lots of shielding and did the job. Used to enjoy hearing the sounds of the weapons, but with win 98 and a dell laptop, I get no sound, even in dos.

	07-01-2003 16:43									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Almost all my games since I restarted playing Moo 1 again ended without the guardian beeing killed. I always won or lost before beeing even close as mighty enough to kill him.

	08-01-2003 03:26									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I am a nut and usually will wait to kill the gaurdian until I have all tech researched and stolen. The only purpose is to get more tech. Then I end the game. This is sick, I know. Normally I have left one planet to keep the game going until the tech is done.

	08-01-2003 07:59									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Oh man, somebody dragged this old thread back from the grave.

	08-01-2003 11:48									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Would you mind me for having done that? I was bored and wanted to talk about Moo 1 and since I already replied to all of the newer ones, I dug deep to find some more.

	08-01-2003 17:33									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by AIL Would you mind me for having done that? I was bored and wanted to talk about Moo 1 and since I already replied to all of the newer ones, I dug deep to find some more.

Fair enough.

I try to take Orion in mid-game, preferably at a time when I have secured my planets and while I am at peace with my neighbours. Usually I do it with a mixed fleet, with two or three stacks of almost-identical fighters with mass drivers, 500 to 2500 in each. Usually I get a tech or two while building up, and make a new fighter type accordingly after each discovery. I then throw all my other ships into the fleet. Missile boats, large half-obsolete power ships, my whole weapons force.
Always remember to send a colony ship with the fleet. I've had races steal Orion under my ships before. That stinks. I can always capture it with my superior fleet, but the bonuses are gone.
Sometimes I fail to capture Orion in the first attempt. That doesn't really hurt much, since I have peace with the other races, and the destroyed fleet would anyway be obsolete before I start any conquest.
What really hurts is to have another race to take Orion and have the time to fortify the planet before I have a chance to capture it.

C.

	08-01-2003 18:11									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

DP
My first, I think.

Last edited by catullus on 08-01-2003 at 18:21

	08-01-2003 20:56									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by catullus Always remember to send a colony ship with the fleet. I've had races steal Orion under my ships before. That stinks. I can always capture it with my superior fleet, but the bonuses are gone.

I thought you get the techs after defeating the Guardian, not when you colonise Orion?

	08-01-2003 21:34									#21
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I thought you get the techs after defeating the Guardian, not when you colonise Orion?

Come to think of it, you probably are right.

C.

	08-01-2003 22:48									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You get the death ray and three tech for defeating the Guardian. I do not even colonize the planet as I will end the game soon after in Moo1. In Moo2, I come as early as I can, but do not colonize it either as it takes too long to build up. I let them build it up some and then take it.

	09-01-2003 08:48									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I always colonise Orion in both. It's gaia, so you get the growth bonus, and you can always transport colonists from other planets, particularly poor/ultrapoor ones.

	09-01-2003 22:38									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Once I take down the guardian, I am going on a planet capture spree and do not want to leave ships on Orion to protect it. I just come back after they get a few structures up and I will have ships to spare for protection.

	10-01-2003 12:13									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I usually have "advanced cloning" or at least "cloning" at that point, so I just pay to grow more colonists.

Just different style, I suppose.

	10-01-2003 14:17									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well you will stil need to leave ships there to protect it until it gets defenses up. It is much easier a bit later when they already have some colonist and structures in place. The thing is I take it down with no more than 5 or 6 battleships and that is all I have in my whole empire. I want to send them on to hurt some one.

	10-01-2003 22:03									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Defeating the Guardian is certainly not a requirement, but Orion is a nice place to colonize. The tech itself is more-or-less irrelevant as by the time you are able to take out the Guardian you're usually winning already anyway.

Once you get into the 2nd half of the tech tree it's a good time to start thinking about going after the Guardian. I generally don't go after Orion earlier than the midpoint of the tech tree as prior to that I'm more interested in expanding my empire at the expense of my neighbors. I usually play on Impossible/Small with 3+ enemy AIs, and use about 2000 small ships armed with Megabolt cannon (at minimum) or better, depending on when I get around to it, with fusion drives and inertial stabilizers (or better) for movement, as well as good computers. This kind of fleet usually takes only a modest investment in shipbuilding to create (a dozen turns or so) at this point in the game. I have found that small ships tend to work better against the Guardian than larger ones at this stage of the game due to the kinds of weapons the Guardian is armed with.

	10-01-2003 23:15									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I do not wait that long as I want the chance to get the X-armor and a free battleship. I go as soon as I have the two 3500 rp techs (Power and Physics). 5 or 6 batleships is plenty, normally I do not lose any.
Loknar will may conquest much easier and often captures the Star Base.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 11-01-2003 at 02:15

	11-01-2003 00:39									#29
	Put an end to popups!

You're talking MOO2 of course, I'm referring to MOO 1. Sorry for any confusion.

	11-01-2003 01:11									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

He shall haved noticed it, since you mentioned "2000 small ships"...

Don't the Scatterpack Xs kill you of? Was Megabolt the white 2-20 with +3 to hit or was it the Orange one?