19-12-2001 19:55									#1
	Corruption: Democracy vs. Republic Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Has anyone quantified the difference of corruption between Democracy and Republic? I am trying to figure out if it is worthwhile to research democracy early.

	19-12-2001 20:09									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

To add to the question, what about the difference between war weariness in the two?

	19-12-2001 21:10									#3
	Corruption Levels Support Apolyton

The corruption levels for Democracy are Minimal while those of a Republic are a Nuisance. I hope those two adjectives clear things up for you. The official recommendation would be to buy the Prima Official Strategy Guide. I checked in one at Barnes & Noble and was enlightened by their insight that a Democracy reduces the level of corruption experienced by a Republic.

BTW: The editor has the same level of helpful information.

Deornwulf - The Very Cynical English Teacher

	20-12-2001 21:28									#4
	My test result Remove this text

No one seems to have a direct answer. So here is my test result:

Standard map, about 30 cities, with Capital and FP built at good location (double ring with a lobe extending from one side).

Republic: 18.6% corruption
Democracy: 16.5% corruption

The date is from Domestic Advisor.

I hope more people will post the data. This way we can have better judgement on the research path.

	20-12-2001 22:07									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Deornwulf. B ut whaddya 'spect from a company whos idea of great strategy is:

"....ummmm....build settlers in the early game....dude."

-=Vel=-

	20-12-2001 22:20									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Deornwulf. B ut whaddya 'spect from a company whos idea of great strategy is: "....ummmm....build settlers in the early game....dude." -=Vel=-

	20-12-2001 22:59									#7
	Re: My test result Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by cheerful No one seems to have a direct answer. So here is my test result: Standard map, about 30 cities, with Capital and FP built at good location (double ring with a lobe extending from one side). Republic: 18.6% corruption Democracy: 16.5% corruption The date is from Domestic Advisor. I hope more people will post the data. This way we can have better judgement on the research path.

Do you remember what your gnp was under each govt? You should be making more money under democracy..

Thanks,

	21-12-2001 00:09									#8
	GNP Enter the AD-FREE zone

IIRC, they are roughly the same -- about 1050. Since you need to switch gov and undergo anarchy for a few turns, can't compare to last digit.

	21-12-2001 00:11									#9
	GNP Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

IIRC, they are roughly the same -- about 1050. Since you need to switch gov and undergo anarchy for a few turns, can't compare to last digit.

Why democracy generate better GNP? As as commerce and production goes, democracy and republic seem to be the same to me, except worker is faster under democracy. Isn't it?

	21-12-2001 02:54									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Cheerful,
Yup, the total trade generated is equal between the two. They both get a bonus trade in any square already producing trade.

I did a similar test a long time ago and had my non-corruption income go from 1213 to 1278 (or so, it was about +60 on a base of 1200). Not very impressive. As for war-weariness I have no numbers, but I have never experienced any weariness under Republic, whereas I have under Democracy. I think the war-weariness difference is substantial.

I think the corruption effects are influenced by another factor, however. There is distance-based corruption and too-many-cities-based corruption. Most things that reduce corruption only operate on the first kind. If you have too many cities for your world size, the corruption that results is nearly un-preventable. The result is that Democracy might help a lot, but only if you aren't already experiencing type 2 corruption.

Even though it doesn't really help (and in fact it makes war more difficult), I still go to Democracy for the faster workers. Anything that reduces micro-management by allowing me to get the same job done with fewer units is worth it in my book.

	21-12-2001 07:50									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Lately I have been holding off on switching to Democracy until I get Steam Power, unless I still have a lot of terraforming to do by the time I get it, as it's biggest benefit (in my opinion) is making your workers 50% faster. An Industrious civilization with Democracy and with Replaceable Parts builds FAST.

	21-12-2001 08:04									#12
	are you guys serious?? Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm a demo in the year 2070 playing the english (started in australia so obviously i'm just playing for fun)

I am building a forbidden palace. I have only 36 more turns to go (remember its now 2070 and i started it like 150 turns ago (or 320 when i first started building).)

I have the police station and the courthouse.

yet here is why i post....In the city i am trying to build FP in...

i produce 24 shields and only 6 are not wasted.

30 commerce and only 7 are not wasted.

Should corruption really be this bad without a palace influence?

If so, how do you guys manage to throw in a forbidden palace when it takes so long to build in a corrupt 3rd world?

( heh, i changed my question slightly as i realized that my corruption would of course be higher since it was not ameliorated by the palace )

I agree..50% faster workers is a huge bonus until you have developed everything.

	21-12-2001 09:49									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Edit the bicstats file with the editor and reduce the cost of the Palace and the FP to 1. No more 1000turns to build a FP or relocate your palace =)

Sith

	21-12-2001 15:37									#14
	Re: Corruption Levels Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Deornwulf The corruption levels for Democracy are Minimal while those of a Republic are a Nuisance. I hope those two adjectives clear things up for you. The official recommendation would be to buy the Prima Official Strategy Guide. I checked in one at Barnes & Noble and was enlightened by their insight that a Democracy reduces the level of corruption experienced by a Republic. BTW: The editor has the same level of helpful information. Deornwulf - The Very Cynical English Teacher

Do you work for Prima ?You are the first person I know to recommend Prima official strategy guide
Tell you what.....Prima Guide sucks!!big time!!!What the helll.....I have 2 prima guide free from Starcraft Battlechest and they both sucks.....My friend told me that Civ3 prima guide sucks too,the tips are for newbies !All are newbies strategies....Prima sucks!the guide are good only for newbies!

	21-12-2001 16:10									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Dripping sarcasm is lost on some~

/dev

	21-12-2001 16:19									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Damnation. I haven't seen a whoosh like that since Muggsy Bogues tried to block a Dikembe Mutombo dunk.

	22-12-2001 00:24									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

hehehehe *chuckling from a few posts up* it's always nice to have some humor in the threads...

As for building the FP, I have two words for you, Redstar:

Great Leader

Your very first one, even if it's your only one, should be used on the FP. If you're not ready to build an FP, save the GL 'till you are.

If you don't get any GLs, build the FP in your current capital, and then "march" your palace to where you would have built the FP, building it in a neighbor city (that has little corruption because it's close to your current capital) and then building it again in the new capital's neighbor city etc...

The only possible exception could be if you're Militaristic and want to make an army to get Heroic Epic to get _more_ GLs. If you think you can get enough payoff doing that and if you intend to fight enough that you might get a second GL before you want to build your FP, then go ahead and build the army. 99% of the time saving for the FP is more efficient.

	22-12-2001 02:50									#18
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by David Weldon If you don't get any GLs, build the FP in your current capital, and then "march" your palace to where you would have built the FP, building it in a neighbor city (that has little corruption because it's close to your current capital) and then building it again in the new capital's neighbor city etc...

Post-patch, this won't work. My palace is costing over 1000 shields in early middle age with about 20 cities (about 100 turns). I ended up building FP in a not-far-away city and live with it until I get a GL to move palace.

	22-12-2001 04:56									#19
	knew someone would say that... Remove this text

"As for building the FP, I have two words for you, Redstar:

Great Leader
"

it was not an option...starting in Australia ensured i was well behind the other civs..so much so, in fact, that i gave in to all demands made of me for thousands of years.

I was further kept behind because of the great corruption in africa.
But finally, i'm actually stronger than all but 1 civ now.
I am ready to fight..for a leader.

hehe, but its 2070 --a tad bit late.

On the bright side, i will have a shiny new FP in 2102. Yeah me. hehe

	22-12-2001 19:21									#20
	Building FP Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

As everyboy said : Great Leader.

Else, first get your city to "we love the *** day" : it reduces corruption.

You can also decide to build it slightly closer to your cap. than you would like..

Last idea would be to switch to Communism (v1.16) as corruption never goes above 20% or such (don't remember exact number).
Communism is however quite costly : No commerce bonus and a slightly higher overall corruption % unless you have a BIG empire.
The free unit upkeeps is nice but usually worth less than 10% of your income.

Phoxtrot

	22-12-2001 19:38									#21
	Re: Building FP Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Phoxtrot Last idea would be to switch to Communism (v1.16) as corruption never goes above 20% or such (don't remember exact number). Communism is however quite costly : No commerce bonus and a slightly higher overall corruption % unless you have a BIG empire. The free unit upkeeps is nice but usually worth less than 10% of your income. Phoxtrot

20%???
80% would be more better
When I change to communism I never had only 20%, maybe I'm just to big

	23-12-2001 02:06									#22
	Re: Building FP Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Phoxtrot As everyboy said : Great Leader. Else, first get your city to "we love the *** day" : it reduces corruption. You can also decide to build it slightly closer to your cap. than you would like.. Last idea would be to switch to Communism (v1.16) as corruption never goes above 20% or such (don't remember exact number). Communism is however quite costly : No commerce bonus and a slightly higher overall corruption % unless you have a BIG empire. The free unit upkeeps is nice but usually worth less than 10% of your income. Phoxtrot

Never played with communism much, have you?

Get an empire large enough and it replicates the Soviet Union by collapsing in on itself. Every time you add a city with a base 99% corruption, that gets averaged across your whole empire. Pretty soon, you can't get corruption below 60% with a court house and a police station in any city and at 0 science/0 luxury you'll still be bleeding money.

I've used communism to fuel late game domination but it's a race to win before my nest egg from democratic days is all used up.

	23-12-2001 05:24									#23
	slight correction Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

my fp time actually went up to 42 turns because i had forgotten i was in a golden age when i last posted. hehe

(hard to move your fp closer when its going in to tame africa but you are based in australia --which of course is why i implied you should start a new game if you are forced to start in australia.


And yes, as i posted before, after the patch (to lower corruption among other things)...

my large commie empire actually started losing 1300 o a turn vs pre-patch heavy corruption. lol )

so i guess my point here is that the only solution to tame corruption far a field is based on limited situations.

getting a leader --means you must fight.
Building FP closer to palace means you must be able to physically do that and put up with lower effciency once done..
or you just wait out the 300 years.

Best option i guess is to use that editor.

I don't mind as i think corruption is being further tweaked.