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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:16
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What is the Great what if? (This idea is from a converstation between Jay bee and myself)
Why simply, what if Columbus had beed turned down by Ferdinand and Isabella, and therefore Spain didn't go to the new world first!
What would this change, if anything?
First, the names of places would different, for a start.
second, there would be no modern Mexico or South America as we know it, no Bolivar, nothing.
In europe, without the new world's gold, Spain could not hope to pay for the wars it fought, like the war of the Austrian seccesion, for example.
North Africa might be very different if the Christians persued the Muslims accross the straights of Gibralter with all of their resources, insteda of forces diverted to the new world.
Other nation's histories would also change.
How would Brittain be if it never fought the Armada?
What if Columbus sailed under the French flag, or the Brittish?
Would John Cabot be more famous if he got there first, ahead of Columbus?
Would there be English colonies in North america if the English were first to central america and it's riches?
So many different things, perhaps some of you could suggest more!
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Kramsib
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Father and protector of PROGRESSIVE GAMES, SANTANDER, Cantabria, España (Spain), Unión Europea (European Union)
Sep 2001
time: 06:16
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First, if you want to know the answers to the Great What if's, play Scenarios.
Second, the Great Great What if is: If my father had wheels, he would not be my father, he would be a bycicle.
Traducción de la expresión castellana, si mi padre tuviera ruedas, ya no sería mi padre sino una bicicleta, ya que la Historia es la que es y no va a haber manera de cambiarla, cambiarla implicaría otra nueva historia.
Y CADA NUEVA HISTORIA ES UNA EXCUSA MÁS PARA JUGAR A CIV 2
EACH NEW HISTORY IS A GOOD REASON TO PLAY CIV 2.   
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Plan Austral
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Poster Formerly known as Kublai-Khan. Buenos Aires - Argentina.
Oct 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Fiera
For me the greatest what if take us to the Second Punic War. What if Hannibal had marched directly into Rome? Or even better, what if Carthage had destroyed Rome?
Our cultural heritage (this is more true for Spain than for the Anglo world), would be different, and everything we adress today as "classic", would very likely be lost, as are most of the Carthaginian literature, religion and traditions. |
I was going to post the same thing,
I think that you saw it in a negative way, but for example imagine
all the technological discoveries that could have been developed in the hellenistic kingdoms that were stopped -in a way- by the romans.
We have to remember all the great discoveries that were made in Alexandria,during all the middle ages and the classical roman period the discoveries made in the ptolomeic kinfdom of egypt were all they had.
We just have to remember Aristarco, the first men who sustained the tesis of Copernico,or Eratostenes who calculated the perimeter of the earth and other people like Arquimides etc..
What could have happened if Alexander the great never tried to invade the persian empire ?
Che,
q mal
mi dominio mediocre del ingles quedo escrachado
Cual es la direccion del diario el pais, aca en argentina estamos pasando el peor momento desde nuestra existencia como pais.
Vieron lo de los saqueos?
Puede pasar en frente de mi casa en cualquier momemnto, ahora hay 8 patrulleros.
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Plan Austral
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Poster Formerly known as Kublai-Khan. Buenos Aires - Argentina.
Oct 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Fiera
For me the greatest what if take us to the Second Punic War. What if Hannibal had marched directly into Rome? Or even better, what if Carthage had destroyed Rome?
Our cultural heritage (this is more true for Spain than for the Anglo world), would be different, and everything we adress today as "classic", would very likely be lost, as are most of the Carthaginian literature, religion and traditions. |
I was going to post the same thing,
I think that you saw it in a negative way, but for example imagine
all the technological discoveries that could have been developed in the hellenistic kingdoms that were stopped -in a way- by the romans.
We have to remember all the great discoveries that were made in Alexandria,during all the middle ages and the classical roman period the discoveries made in the ptolomeic kinfdom of egypt were all they had.
We just have to remember Aristarco, the first men who sustained the tesis of Copernico,or Eratostenes who calculated the perimeter of the earth and other people like Arquimides etc..
What could have happened if Alexander the great never tried to invade the persian empire ?
Che,
q mal
mi dominio mediocre del ingles quedo escrachado
Cual es la direccion del diario el pais, aca en argentina estamos pasando el peor momento desde nuestra existencia como pais.
Vieron lo de los saqueos?
Puede pasar en frente de mi casa en cualquier momemnto, ahora hay 8 patrulleros.
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kIndal
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de la taifa de Almería, Spain.
Oct 2000
time: 06:16
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Nice question Chris  I believed that everything had changed, and sorry but i believe that everything had been better for Spain 
If Spain hadnt discovered america probably Charles hadnt been crowned as Holy Emperor, because Francis of France would be the most important king. So Spain had never heird(se dice asi "heredar"?) Netherlands, the main cause of its decadence. And if you see other countries took more profits from Spanish gold than Spain, specially Holland, England and some German states.
I believe that Spain as natural way to go to America had played a important role in the commercial routes but without the problems of conquesting and supporting a great empire, so had earned lot of gold to develop our country without the problems of European wars, just some in Italy and north Africa agaisnt muslims.
I believe that France had been the bad of the story, the French Black Legend hehe  and could be that without the obligation of being tha Catholic Champion inquisition had been less powerfull and some Protestant revolt had happened (is it true that in Spain were some Protestant movements?).
Too, I believe that Portugal had made a greatest empire and....well and everything would change 
I would like to make a bit larger and develop but I am afraid that my english...
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Marquis de Sodaq
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... no, a Marquis.
Jul 2000
time: 23:16
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...And your uncle would have some very interesting stories to tell...
If Colombus had not sailed in 1492, he may well have found another patron within the next decade. There was sufficient interest in finding better routes to east asia at that time, somebody would have taken the risk. The English may have sailed to north america, just as they did in history, due to wind patterns and proximity. Going to the tropics would have necessitated passing Spain and France, fierce rivals. The US may have come to be in this case, too. Even with south america open for conquest, it may not have worked out as well. After another few years, the Incas may have been a unified, strong people who would not succumb to conquerors for generations, just as the historical Maya resisted.
The Spanish may well have instead turned to north and west africa. After the moors were purged, would the Spanish have chased them toward Egypt, claiming conquered lands as colonies? If the americas were not all unconquered, they may have focused resources on nearby lands. The americas may have been a prize for which they would have to fight harder than they did.
I suspect either the Portuguese, French or English would have started colonizing the americas if the Spanish hadn't been the first to do so. The result may have been nothing more than a patchwork of colonies, just as africa came to be colonized. Instead of mexico southward being spanish and portoguese, maybe Venezuela would have ended up french, Peru English, or any such possibility.
I think the americas would have ended up colonized, regardless of Columbus' success. Sooner or later, technologically superior europeans would have shown up to take lands.
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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
I think the americas would have ended up colonized, regardless of Columbus' success. Sooner or later, technologically superior europeans would have shown up to take lands. |
My opinion exactly. And regarding Spain, she would have still been present in the European battlegrounds - her superiority came from the Gran Capitán campaigns in Naples (1494-1503), before any effect from the Americas colonization took place.
Besides, Northern Africa and even the Middle East would have been the natural route for all those eager for glory Conquistadors, such as Cortés, Pizarro, etc. had not they had the chance to try their luck in America.
In fact, the expansion through Northern Africa was the follow-up to the Reconquista, one of the greatest interests of the Catholic Kings, and king Fernando himself had the dream of fight the infidels all the way through Northern Africa to Jerusalem. This great project, continued to some extent by Charles V, was continuosly postponed due to the Italian wars, and I believe that it eventually came into oblivion due to the magnitude of the profit that Soain could get from her colonies in America.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
sorry to hear that Chris Look it from the positive side, some people have made worthy replies... |
Not your fault, my friend, but it does illustrate what we were speaking of the other day, doesn't it?
I believe that Columbus would have found another patron, and it is possible that it would probaly be either England or France (but he wouldn't have gotten three ships, one is more likely).
Hard to say if a fighting force to match the Conquitadors could be found in other powers, but without new world gold, Spain would have had a hard time paying for armies in Europe (Which were frightfully expensive to raise and maintain).
There is also the possibility of Spain making a conscerted effort to take Portugaul and her colonies as spain's own, thus gaining the eastern route to India and the Spice islands for the Spanish crown over the Portuguese one.
This means a Spanish (and thus heavily Catholic) presense in India, and it's unlikely the Dutch could steal the East Indies from Spain as easily as she did for Portugal, so isntaed of Islam being strong in southeast asia it may well have ended up being Catholisim that would dominate the Indies (Islam fared poorly under Spanish reign).
Portugual might have also looked to the west if an aggressive Spain stole it's eastward gains.
Besides the historical colonization of Brasil, they might have gone further against the Inca, or perhaps against the mezo-American cultures of central America.
Quite a ripple effect from one simple voyage, eh?
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yaroslav
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Madrid, Spain, Europe
Jun 2001
time: 06:16
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This evening (19:00) I posted here, but it was lost!
Perphas this not...
First, on topic. If not Columbus, other will discover America soon. The time was rigth, with the Turks closing the orient's trades rute. Probably, Portugal get more money for his colonies in Africa and Asia... Spain probably colonies North Africa, a way that the discover of America closed. I think that 'the machine was turned on': seven thousand of continous Reconquista have created many charges (e.g: 'adelantado') that were used in America...
Second, on Carthago and Punics wars: Altough I love Cartago and I think that Hannibal is the better general of Ancients times, I think that Cartago was ruthless in his colonies (more than Rome, if possible ). And Cartago has his own culture better than Rome and worse than Greek, but enough to dislike the Greek culture, so I don't want think how much we lost if Cartago wins.
Some years ago, I read a sci-fi book, Time's Voyager, that was about if is... And one of them was about Second Punic war!
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Marquis de Sodaq
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... no, a Marquis.
Jul 2000
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
How long would have taken for somebody to sail west? I would speculate with 50-100 more years. |
I suspect Columbus would have found another patron, or somebody (english) would have sponsored one of their own adventurers. I think within 10 or 20 years.
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
What was to be obtained in Africa, land of the infidel muslims plus the Sahara desert? |
Well, the Mali and Tuareg were important traders of salt and gold! Gold was a key element motivating the spanish to secure america, maybe they would have targeted africa instead...
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
Who would have been the first? My pick is the Dutch. |
Either them or the English. The English, I believe, would have ended up in north america regardless of Columbus, as I mentioned before. People generally thought the world was round, but the daunting task of going into what could be an endless sea is enough to keep brave sailors at port. Even so, somebody would have tried to find a way westward. The Dutch may well have done so, tho I think they may have been too cautious to be the first.
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20-12-2001 01:06
¡Maldito! 
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