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Libertarian
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These are based on my own experience. Your mileage may vary. I've tried to steer clear of things that can be "fixed" using the editor, like crippling corruption, etc.
10. Anticlimactic Victories
I remember my first victory. Diplomatic, it was. Ugh.
Here we were at the defining moment. A vote was about to be cast in the United Nations, which I had built. I was a candidate. Catherine was the other. I paused a moment to reflect over the game. Had I been diplomatic enough? I hoped so. I had certainly helped Egypt to rise from the ashes of its war with the Romans. And I had helped to balance the Romans as well with money and technology, once the Egyptians caught up.
The suspense was palpable. I clicked OK.
Pop! A message box declared me the winner. A message box? Hmmm... Surely, this must be the harbinger of a beautiful movie that will show me arriving victorious in Paris and taking my place in the UN. Nope. Nada. Nothing else. Just the message box.
In the next game, I turned off diplomatic victory, only to find that I got the same reward for winning by culture — an abrupt, plain, meaningless message box.
9. Air Recon Bug
Based on the Christmas chat, I have reason to believe that my posts might have been set to be ignored by Dan and/or Jeff. I've reported this bug, but don't know whether they've seen the report (or care).
But it has certainly made the whole notion of reconning a border area moot. There's no sense in investing in the jets if one will simply wipe out the other's recons. For me, this removes part of the fun of the attack planning. I have to fly blind.
8. Civilopedia Inaccesible in Critical Places
I've no idea, when I'm trading, whether I'm trading value for value because I can't get to the documentation without abandoning the negotiation.
And when deciding whether this is the city that should have X Wonder, I have to close the city screen to find out whether this is the Wonder that does Y.
Chasing down information that ought to be readily available is not my idea of fun.
7. AI Ignoring Requests to Leave
This one has caused me to have to fight wars for which I hadn't prepared and which made no sense contextually.
Whenever I cross a border, and the AI asks me to leave, by the second request, if I haven't left, I'm either shoved out or required to declare war. The AI, on the other hand, is allowed to meander with its workers wherever and whenever it pleases.
Thus, my strategic goals often must be put aside to deal with this annoyance. It's not fun to be jerked around for no good reason.
6. Empty Technologies
I really don't understand the point of this. If it's going to take 12 turns to get to something, why not just make the something take 12 turns?
There is no reward feedback whatsoever in getting a stepping-stone technology. It's just a game nuisance. And the problem is that, in Civ3, there are so many of them.
5. Domestic Nag
Argh! I hate that woman!
If I've told her once, I've told her five hundred times (literally) that I don't want to build a hospital. And I've told her just like I've moved workers — one at a time.
For the period while she's nagging, the game devolves into a meaningless and mindless (and long) series of click click click click click. Inevitably, as my mind wanders from the game, I click when an actually important message pops up, not meaning to, but just lost in the banal rhythm.
Nag, go away! Forever!
4. Unfinished Editor
Once you've become familiar with the game, you get to the point that you know what to expect. It all becomes quite predictable. Yes, there is infinite replay, but infinite replay of the same song over and over.
A well developed editor could help change this. Interesting starting locations and terrain layouts could provide a different look and feel for the game.
I suspect that the editor has gotten the most attention, and should be majorly improved with the next patch.
3. Subliminal Messages
Oh, lordy. They fly by, often three or four at a time, and display for a split second as the map jerks around in spastic fits. There's pollution somewhere, starvation elsewhere, and cultural expansion God-only-knows-where.
Hunting down what actually happened at the beginning of a turn is tedious and fraught with futility. Pollution looks so much like a mountain top that it is almost impossible to find zoomed out.
It would be wonderful if these could be listed for review after the map spasms have ceased.
2. No Group Movement
The game all but disappears underneath the achingly dull unit movement interface. Enough has been said about this that most everyone understands what a game killer it is.
1. Bizarre Unit Activation Sequencing
Yep. Even more than tedious unit movement, this one just completely ruins the game for me.
In fact, the interface becomes my enemy, as I fight it to try and maintain some semblence of continuity. Guessing what might activate next, as the command buttons morph and rearrange, is a complete Lotto.
Having to navigate all around a map with extremely limited zoom and clutzy scrolling mechanisms, while trying to maintain a train of thought in a theater of battle, or in an area where you're clearing jungle, is impossible.
The top two features, in particular, have forced me to modify my own playing style to accomodate the game. Fewer workers. Smaller map. Constricted growth.
And it's still not fun. It's still tedious as hell. Bummer.
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Knockout
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Rijeka, Croatia
Nov 2001
time: 06:17
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I have a wonderful idea: WHY DON'T YOU STOP PLAYING CIV 3 AND GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE???
I mean no disrespect, but it's kinda funny to read posts like this... and I bet you're gonna play another game first thing as soon as you get some free time! I personaly like Civ 3 and some of the things you mentioned annoy me to, but overall, it's not that bad...
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Ralf
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Sweden
Mar 2000
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Libertarian
And it's still not fun. It's still tedious as hell. Bummer. |
And STILL you keep on playing it, and STILL you keep on posting topics here that complain & whine, instead of suggesting changes & tweaks to the game in a more constructive manner.
Why not try the latter approach, for a while? Or if its seems hopeless: Leave.
Last edited by Ralf on 22-12-2001 at 17:48
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Libertarian
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What do you mean by "more constructive"?
I've been told that the people who've pocketed a portion of my money needn't "waste time" being considerate of me. Why must I give them both money and supplication?
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CB2034
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quote:
Originally posted by Knockout
I have a wonderful idea: WHY DON'T YOU STOP PLAYING CIV 3 AND GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE???
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Thanks for that great piece of literary work, worthy of a nobel peace prize for literature. As a matter of fact I believe that the aforementioned line is better then The Great Gatsby, The Scarlet Letter and the History of the World Part One combined. Thanks so much for gracing us with that one line. The world is definatley a different place now that I have read that.
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Evil_Eric_4
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quote:
I have a wonderful idea: WHY DON'T YOU STOP PLAYING CIV 3 AND GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE??? |
Hey, give the guy a break -all the points he mentioned I agree with-some minor 3,6,7,8,10-some major 1,2,4,5-not sure about 9.
anyway Id like to mail this list directly to the patch team (if there is such a thing).
I'd call it constructive even if only one of those guys read this post.
Last edited by Evil_Eric_4 on 22-12-2001 at 21:30
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PeaSoup
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Vancouver, BC
Nov 2001
time: 21:17
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I, for one do think that Libertarian had made quite a few valid points. His post was a far cry from the usual "my tanks got beaten by a spearmen!" type of posts.
for example, I do find the domestic advisor's popups about switching production to an aquaduct or a hospital annoying because I wanted to keep my high curruption cities in a WLTKD state to get the shield bonuses, a preference option to turn it off might be nice.
also, a click-able & zoom-able summary of events such as occuring pollution, expanding borders, new/exaused resource, etc.. would be helpful. So that all I have to do to zoom to the event is to click on the summary. As of right now, I use the 'Top 5 Cities' screen to see if I have any pollution in my empire, because it gets scrolled by so fast at the start of turn, and becomes easy to miss/forget.
Civilopedia not available where it's most needed, and air recon bug are all legit complaints and work against the flow of the game..
now, a less predictable AI might be nice as well.. 
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Colonel Kraken
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Grand Rapids, MI
Nov 2000
time: 00:17
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I agree with Libertarian. He brings up some very valid points. To me, most of these items don't kill the game for me. I'm "lucky" enough to play the game relatively lackadaisically (compared to most of you here at Apolyton), so I'm not burdened by "100's of workers" and other such extreme numbers. Even so, these items do contribute to boredom and tedium for me. These are valid points that need to be heard. They are not the usual whining of "I didn't get my way!" 4-year old foot stomping. They are some very insightful, in most cases, very obvious problems with the basic function of the game. Fixing these items would really put some serious polish on the game.
As for all the other types of complaints "My spearman beat your tank" and other game design decisions, they, for the most part, can be edited to everyone's hearts content; let's face it, everyone has a different idea of how strong each unit should be versus another. This, of course, obviates the need for an extremely versatile editor. That's where all of these types of complaints should be directed toward: a great editor.
Thanks, Libertarian, for constructively spelling out some basic ideas that could seriously improve the mechanics of gameplay and create a memorable and lasting experience in the Civ tradition. 
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nato
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West Unite
Aug 2001
time: 00:17
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I would like to say something in response to the "Just quit playing and never post here again!" camp.
I understand why it seems strange that ppl still post about a game they don't like much and have quit playing.
It is strange.
But I think a big part of the reason is that civ isn't just another game. Its a big important game that has been loved in the past and that ppl have developed an emotional attachment to. This sounds weird maybe, but it is no worse than someone who developed an emotional attachment to a pro sports team, which no one would DARE mock.
Its hard to just walk away from civ like you would from some no name generic game.
I think emotional attachment is at least some of the reason ppl are such ardent defenders of a game that is so disappointing. They have an emotional investment in civ too, yet here the game is missing something badly ... I think some ppl hit cognitive dissonence. Civ3 is supposed to be great, I want it to be great very badly ... well darn it, it HAS to be great, even if its not, so I'm going to see it as great rather than experience huge disappointment.
I don't presume to speak for others, I know a lot of ppl really like it. But I think some ppl might fit that description ... because I did until I just faced the hard facts, even though I didn't want to.
This game, in its current state, is too little fun for too much work. Something needs to be done to minimize the work so you can get to the fun parts more often.
I gave up on Civ 2-3 weeks after it came out. I showed back up here for the patch ... but it was mostly typographical fixes. I guess I'm still here in the slim hopes major fixes in an expansion pack will be made, and also for the history / politics threads that sometimes come up. I'm still here because I like civ a lot and really want it to work, unlike a no-name game I would just abandon.
In response to the thread, I switched off diplomatic and cultural victories immediately after I experienced them. I don't see any easy way to fix them ... I don't really mind, I am happy with just plain conquest victory anyway.
The only things on the list otherwise that I feel are important are 1 and 2. Stack movement is absolutely crucial! How could they not have included this? Sequential activation would sure help out too, but I could make do without it if stack movement was implemented. Again I don't see any good reason why this was not included to begin with.
I would like to add to the list not having huge armies completely vanish due to cultural defection. This kills the game for me. I would like to again suggest my solution of using the diplomatic kick out function to kick those units out to the nearest border, or possibly to the nearest city, and possibly damaging or deleting some units.
Thanks for reading.
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Barnacle Bill
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Somewhere on the wine dark sea
Oct 2001
time: 00:17
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On the border thing, the simplest solution would be to make it impossible for any Civ (human or AI) to order any ground unit into a tile within the borders of another Civ unless a state of war or a right of passage treaty exists. If you want to attack, declare war then move across the border. The same effect really is if when you try to move across the border you get the same pop-up as when you order an attack now, and confirming the order has the effect of creating a state of war. Either way, no more annoying border violations and useless diplomacy to demand that they stop.
This should not apply to ships and air missions, though. Violations of air space and/or territorial waters in real life are not the same thing as border violations by division-sized or larger ground forces. Plus, territorial waters in real life would be less than 1 Civ3 tile wide - even on a 256-wide Civ3 map each tile is about 156 km which is way more that the 12 miles from which you can exclude foreign naval forces under international law. At most, your borders should extend to coastal water tiles adjacent to land tiles within your borders, but probably borders for the purpose of excluding foriegn units (as opposed to economic use by city laborers) should just stop at the beach.
On related topics, right of passage should not automatically be mutual - if you want right of passage without granting it in return it should cost extra but you should be able to negociate for it. Similarly, you should be able to negociate the ability to use ports & air bases (or that should be included in right of passage by default). Finally, you should be able to ask/demand/bribe a civ to break agreements or make peace with a third civ.
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sophist
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quote:
Originally posted by Libertarian
8. Civilopedia Inaccesible in Critical Places
I've no idea, when I'm trading, whether I'm trading value for value because I can't get to the documentation without abandoning the negotiation.
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If you hit Esc, it'll pop you out of the trading screen and you can then access the civilopedia. If you then open a diplomatic session, it'll pick up where you left off. Admittedly, having it "in flow" would be preferable, as this doesn't address diplomacy when it's not your turn.
quote:
Originally posted by Libertarian
And when deciding whether this is the city that should have X Wonder, I have to close the city screen to find out whether this is the Wonder that does Y.
Chasing down information that ought to be readily available is not my idea of fun.
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Yes, there's a definite need for civilopedia access from within the build menu.
quote:
Originally posted by Libertarian
6. Empty Technologies
I really don't understand the point of this. If it's going to take 12 turns to get to something, why not just make the something take 12 turns?
There is no reward feedback whatsoever in getting a stepping-stone technology. It's just a game nuisance. And the problem is that, in Civ3, there are so many of them.
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Well, it does give you something to trade. After all, you might be willing to sell Printing Press but not Democracy. I would say the solution is making the tech give you something (like, say, a printing press?) rather than eliminating it.
quote:
Originally posted by Libertarian
Having to navigate all around a map with extremely limited zoom and clutzy scrolling mechanisms, while trying to maintain a train of thought in a theater of battle, or in an area where you're clearing jungle, is impossible.
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I would make the inability to have more than two levels of zoom #11. With a coda for the complete absence of zoom in the editor.
quote:
Originally posted by Knockout
I have a wonderful idea: WHY DON'T YOU STOP PLAYING CIV 3 AND GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE???
I mean no disrespect, but it's kinda funny to read posts like this... and I bet you're gonna play another game first thing as soon as you get some free time! I personaly like Civ 3 and some of the things you mentioned annoy me to, but overall, it's not that bad...
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Because we gave $50 of our money for a game that we'd want to play.
quote:
Originally posted by Ralf
And STILL you keep on playing it, and STILL you keep on posting topics here that complain & whine, instead of suggesting changes & tweaks to the game in a more constructive manner.
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What's a constructive manner? He said what's wrong, with either implicit or explicit suggestions of how to fix it.
quote:
Originally posted by Ralf
Libetarian - have you any idea how many games that I have bought over the years, more or less on inpulse - just to realise that It wasnt cut exactly like I wanted it?
I have played those games for an hour or so - then put it on some dust-collecting shelve. Or take it for a second-hand trade-in, for another game in exchange.
Its no big deal, so get over it.
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Example: a guy's kid was crying in a movie a few months back (R-rated, too). After the movie I stuck my nose in and said he shouldn't bring his kid to movies where he might disturb people. The guy said I could get my money back from the theater manager. That's not the answer. I don't want my money back from the theater. I don't want my money back at all. I paid to watch a movie without disturbance, and I should get that. Similarly, I paid for a Civ3 without the above flaws. Would I have bought it had I known that these issues existed? Possibly. Even if I could return it, would that be a satisfactory solution? Nope. I don't want my money back. I don't even want my time back. What I want is the game that I should have been given. If I get it 5 months later, well, that's better than not at all. Firaxis will gain or lose future customers based on this, so it's not like they don't have some motivation.
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Blaupanzer
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Fairfax, VA
Oct 2000
time: 00:17
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What's missing is that sense of awe from the earlier editions. Wonder movies, end game shows, music signalling death of a civ all contributed to the sense of amazement which the game tried to sustain. This one has details (rulers' faces, animated units) but lack that strategic almost God-like grandeur.
Libertarian, you have said on several threads that you don't play anymore, but have a "right to complain. No reason to now complain that the designers and developers have tuned you out -- you told them to. Obviously, I agree with some of your list. I'm not entirely convinced that the editor should be adjusted to fix all of these. Some are fundamental (10, 9, and 8, especially).
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Libertarian
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Blaupanzer,
I've not said in any thread that I don't play anymore.
What I've said is that I find play to be boring, and that I've had to modify my playing style to avoid carpal tunnel, and that I'm going to try some things with the editor to see whether I can make workers less relevant.
Then — if that fails, and if Firaxis continues to refuse to state its intentions with respect to game boredom — then I'll stop playing.
It's like Nato said above, this is a hard game to walk away from. It feels like an old friend. One that's dying. It's sad.
I understand Ming's concern about sales dropping because it is inevitable that word will get out about the truth — especially on the Internet.
So in my opinion, what Firaxis faces is a decision of conscience. Does it intend to leave the game like this or not? And does it intend to reward us (its play testers) with information about where exactly they are headed with all this? Or does it just decide to take the money and run?
We'll see.
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Libertarian
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You're a well-tempered person, Ming. A facilitator. I'm glad you participate. I realize that my rhetoric goes over the top sometimes. I wish I had your temperament.
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Whoha
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The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:17
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Pretty sure they know about this, there are a few threads that are bug lists, and they'll probably address it all. I dont see the worker tedium problem though, if its just pollution, ive found that toning it down saves alot on pointless worker action
Last edited by Whoha on 23-12-2001 at 01:48
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Jodo Kast
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I think that's hilarious: comparing Civ3 to a dying friend that we all love to 'play'.
Well, complaining that the hospital is killing him is NOT the answer. Maybe you know something about graphics (surgery), you could help the patient.
But you don't. You DO mention these things over and over again. Please make files like the rest of us and share them. Give the patient a break.
For example: There was NO REPLAY in CIV2!!! That meant there was no reward and summary of what lands I had conquered. What was the point of playing it without a replay? But, it was fun so I accepted it. There were many such 'issues' that I had to get over (especially the fake-3D isometric map).
So please, balance your opinion and tell us 10 things you LIKE about Civilization 3! Thank you.
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TiredEnglishman
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List good points? What's the point of that? People post the bad points so that they may be fixed. Look on the main board, at the post "v1.16f Issues. Bugs. This is the thread". Notice how Jeffery Morris titles it. He wants to know whats wrong with it so that it can be looked it. He didn't post "v1.16f Tells us the good stuff about it". Yes it does get classed as whining when people dislike something about it, but in all honesty when you have paid money for a game, surely you have a right to give your opinion on it and its features. Whether they be good or bad.
"Civilization II didn't have a replay feature" - True, but the replay has only ever seen the cherry on the icing of a nice cake. Civ II didn't have the replay, but it had everything else. What's the point of having a reply feature when the game isn't good enough to want to make you replay it?
Civilization III isn't the worse game ever (I even like it), the thing is a lot of it's potential has gone unrealised and one outside the buiding of the Firaxians can only do so much to help the 'patient' survive. Some of the things Lib listed have been fixed thanks to dedicated people, but not everything wrong can be accessed.
My two pence worth!
T.E.
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shyaway
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 00:17
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the stack movement function really needed to be in-game.
playing a huge map... owning 100ish workers... issueing 1 by 1 to do their jobs... no wonder i always quit the game half way, LoL
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22-12-2001 17:17
CB2034
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