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Dr Strangelove
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Here's some reasons for not leagalizing marijuana: Marijuana, like alcohol, interferes with reflexes, cognition, thought processes, and judgement, but unlike alcohol it's effects seem to linger after it has been removed from the blood. Alcohol is removed from the blood at rate equivalent to one beer or cocktail every one to two hours. A moderate intake of marijuana would be cleared from the blood overnight, but it will continue to impair the users reflexes and judgement through the next day.
Marijuana does kill people. If you have a motor vehicle accident or shoot somebody while under the influence of marijuana because your reflexes and judgement is impaired, then it's safe to say that the victim's death was caused by marijuana. After all, relatively few people die from the direct toxic effects of alcohol these days, but thousands are killed by accidents or homicides caused by alcohol. How many people are killed by marijuana yearly? It would be difficult to say because most people who toke up also drink and do other drugs. You'd also need to take into account that marijuana impairment continues after the substance is cleared from blood and urine. The DOT has claimed that "substance abuse" other than alcohol accounts for about 15% of all traffic fatalities. I don't know the stats for homicides.
When you argue that marijuana should be legalized because alcohol is, don't make the assumption that everyone is happy with the legalization of alcohol. In the early 1930's the anti prohibition crowd played fast and loose with the facts in order to convince Congress to repeal the Prohibition Amendment. We'd be better off if their big money hadn't bought off the government.
Here's a suggestion for you legalization guys: Go down to your local ER sometime. Ask the head nurse if, the next time they get a fatality from an accident or shooting caused by drugs, they would allow you to help clean up the body. If you meet with resistance just tell them you're with a pro drug legalization crowd and that I sent you.
Asher- a few years ago the Canadian government tried instituting a massive tax on cigarettes. The result was the rapid formation of cigarette smuggling rings which ferried the butts across the Great Lakes form the US to Canada. When the Canadians stepped up their attempts to intercept this traffic the thugs began shooting Canadian police. Eventually Canada scaled back the tax.
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Evil Knevil
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St Andrews, Scotland.
Dec 1999
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr.Oogkloot
One thing that I don't understand - if marijuana is legalized and "taxed the hell out of", won't there still be a black market, etc. because people want to avoid these taxes?
In the same sense, look at the huge black market for cigarettes...
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Good point, although the fag blackmarket is only really a smallish business (compared to illegal drugs) the tax should probably be high enough to be worthwhile, and to discourage children and poor people, but not so high that people stay with the dealers ?
hmmm.
quote:
This is exactly why some people here are communist *******s without a clue. They go ahead and call me BAM when themselves have nothing to back up their saying.
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Moron without a clue. Facist pig as well. I have the pictures as well.
Asher, alcohol is addictive (in the same way nicotine is) wheras hash isn't --although you can develop a dependance on it, but thats psychological, rather than physical.
[rant]
Of course they should legalise hash, it's not a major social ill like alcohol or actual hard drugs, the only damage is to health (and thats disputed). If people chose to take it then I don't see why its such a problem.
You may cite (as that fascist himmlersucker Gian does) the "legions" of unemployed hash takers who live off of us --isn't this the same as the disabled, the asylum seeker, the single mom --the people tory ratbags love to hate. Come on hash isn't a major social blight, and besides that, isn't it more likely that they can and do smoke hash, because they're unemployed, rather than vice-versa?
[/rant]
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Gareth Edmunson
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Public Enemy #1
Aug 2000
time: 05:17
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quote:
Here's some reasons for not leagalizing marijuana: Marijuana, like alcohol, interferes with reflexes, cognition, thought processes, and judgement, but unlike alcohol it's effects seem to linger after it has been removed from the blood. Alcohol is removed from the blood at rate equivalent to one beer or cocktail every one to two hours. A moderate intake of marijuana would be cleared from the blood overnight, but it will continue to impair the users reflexes and judgement through the next day. |
I'll speak to that. If you smoke for a week straight or more(which I often do), you'll find that even days since you're last smoke, your mind is groggy and you can't think as quickly as you normally could. if you drink everyday for a week straight, you'll just be hung over like a bastard, but it doesn't have the same lingering effect.
So Asher, before you start running your mouth like you know everything look into things a bit more. Honestly, how much weed have you smoked in your life? A gram? And how often do you smoke, like how many days continuously?
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SlowwHand
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of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by CB2034
It was a counter proposal , in which I dont believe in the first place, just practicing debate, however, I will attempt to prove how your thinking is clouded my friend. Frist the bible tells us to treat our bodies like a temple, smoking anything destroys our bodies and clouds are judgement, two things in which the bible tells us not to do. Second, the bible tells us it is ok to imbibe (i dont think i spelled that right) alchohol but not to over indulge. I cant remember anytime where someone has smoked and not overindulged, one hit gives u a buzz. Yes the bible does tell us that God gave us all the seed and herb bearing plants to use, however, we are suppose to understand what that means. Does it mean that we are suppose to smoke it, I dont think so. Does it mean we should harvest hemp to make clothes and rope and paper because it is better then destroying forest for the same thing, I do think so. You must use comon sense here. |
The Bible talks of moderation, grasshopper. Nothing about herb being a sin.
Just because your circle of acquaintances sit around and giggle after a joint doesn't particularly reflect an all emcompassing use.
Just because "you don't think so", doesn't make it so either.
As for Korn, you can brew beer too, but it's inferior.
Think of professional farmers, and what they could do.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:17
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Snapcase - quote:
There's no way the government can get away with banning alcohol- so many people use it anyway that the system would collapse. |
The United States not only banned alcohol, they amended the Constitution to ban alcohol (the manufacture and sale).
quote:
So, quite simply- stronger laws reduce Marijuana usage through sending a negative message, weaker laws increase it by sending a positive message |
The Netherlands legalized marijuana and has not experienced rampant use. In fact, teen use of marijunana is lower than in the US where the government spends billions to send that negative message.
quote:
And surely a reduced Marijuana usage is something worth fighting for |
And surely reduced freedom is something worth fighting for.
Giancarlo - quote:
legalization you might think would reduce consumption would actually increase it in my opinion. |
Alcohol consumption increased under prohibition and marijuana consumption by teens is lower in The Netherlands than in the USA.
quote:
With I do respect, though my opinion is extremely unpopular around here, I think we should increase the sentence for drug related crimes. |
You quoted a lengthy paragraph refuting your argument about legalization causing increased use, and you did nothing to refute it.
quote:
No it is the other way around. If we legalize it will strengthen the drug cartels because the prices will drop. |
Like the repeal of alcohol prohibition strengthened the Mafia? 
quote:
The drug war will continue with body bags of drug dealers and traffikers as a result. |
You're forgetting the body bags for law enforcement, the innocent who are "mistakes", and all the people killed in the street wars between rival gangs. When was the last time you heard of alcohol dealers having shootouts on our streets over marketshare?
CB2034 - quote:
First of all, from a Christian perspective,
You are suppose to treat your body as a temple, smoking pot destroys your body. |
That isn't the Christian perspective. Jesus was accused of defiling himself for eating with unclean hands. He told his accusers "it is not what a man puts in his mouth that defiles him, but what comes out of his mouth, this defiles him". Jesus was talking about the evil thoughts and words people have that precede the evil actions they commit. The act of murder is preceded by the evil desire to murder. Btw, smoking pot does not destroy the body. If it did, perhaps you can explain why there are tens of millions of "destroyed bodies" walking around 
quote:
You are suppose to obey the laws of the land, if the law says dont smoke it, then you dont smoke it. |
It was primarily Christians who ran the Underground Railroad. Do you really think Christians should have helped the Nazis murder millions of people because of the laws they were suppose to obey? Paul condoned slavery, is that "Christianity" to you?
quote:
People who smoke pot more often then not move into more hardcore drugs |
Not true, roughly 90 million Americans have used pot, the number who have used "harder drugs" is much smaller. And the fact is that most people who used pot used alcohol or tobacco before using pot so you could argue it was alcohol or tobacco that "led" to these harder drugs. Btw, I've played many sports in my lifetime (and my body has paid a much heavier price than from all the drugs I ever used). If basketball was my first sport, does that mean basketball is a "gateway" sport?
quote:
Someone under the influence of pot still suffers from delayed reaction time and becomes more clumsy (i know this from experience) and more likely to not be able to control motor vehicles, while this can also be said of alcohol, it is much easier to tell if someone is under the influence of alcohol then it is pot (i.e. breathalyzer) |
This might be relevant if we were arguing for legalizing driving while under the influence. And comparing pot with alcohol in regards to motor functions is ridiculous, the former's effects are small and largely offset by the caution (call it paranoia) a pot user exihibits while driving under the influence whereas alcohol has the opposite effect and causes a much greater loss of coordination.
quote:
Smoking one joint is like smoking a pack of cigarettes at once when comparing the amount of damage it does to your lungs, one might argue that it is ones choice whether or not to destroy your own body, however in the long run the entire populace have to pay for ones medical bills. |
I didn't ask you to legislate a welfare state so don't use your desire for socialized medicine as an excuse to further erode our freedom. Besides, this argument is another falsehood put out by the anti-smoking crowd. If smoking pot really did as much as damage as you claim (proof?) then pot smokers would die at a younger ager just as tobacco smokers. That means they would not be around to collect all those Social Security benefits. And the fact is we all die, and most of us don't go in one night, but go after a prolonged illness. Why does it matter if I go from a heart attack induced by smoking and you go from Diabetes induced by years of consuming processed sugar? It would be nice if the people who make this argument actually backed it up with proof since it is so obviously false. Btw, claiming smoking a joint is comparable to smoking an entire pack all at once is absurd.
quote:
Just a counter-proposal, nothing more, nothing less |
Understood, as are my rebuttals.
quote:
Second, the bible tells us it is ok to imbibe (i dont think i spelled that right) alchohol but not to over indulge. |
That's about alcohol, not pot. And Jesus supplied an abundance of wine to a group of people who were already "well-drunk" (Wedding at Cana) so it would seem partying was not the big sin some people claim.
quote:
I cant remember anytime where someone has smoked and not overindulged, one hit gives u a buzz. |
There is a big difference between catching a "buzz" and falling down drunk.
quote:
Yes the bible does tell us that God gave us all the seed and herb bearing plants to use, however, we are suppose to understand what that means. Does it mean that we are suppose to smoke it, I dont think so. |
Does it mean we are to ban God's plants?
The Bible didn't say we are to only eat plants, but to use them.
quote:
Does it mean we should harvest hemp to make clothes and rope and paper because it is better then destroying forest for the same thing, I do think so. You must use comon sense here. |
Is this "common sense" to be used when the Bible doesn't support your claims?
quote:
I can name a few. First off Toonces, the driving cat. That cat dies many times and I for one am sure that that cat was a stoner |
God I hope that was meant as a joke. You're creating a strawman, the discussion was about people dying from diseases caused by pot, not driving under the influence.
quote:
Philosophical reasons, when those people get lung cancer, Its gonna be my tax dollars that take care of them. Its gonna be your tax dollars that take care of them. From personal experience, most of the people I know that still smoke pot live with their folks, live in public housing, or are barely squeaking by. |
Pot causes lung cancer? That's news to me. And no, pumping a genetically bred
rat full of some chemical only proves how stupid some "scientists" can be. I don't like the fact my taxdollars are being used to provide for retirees, but I don't want to make it illegal for people to retire.
Juggernaut - quote:
There's yet to be one single death victim due to cannabis usage. How many lives have alcohole taken? Millions? |
Yes, when the anti-smoking crowd is making all these claims about the horrors of smoking pot, they never point to the morgues filled with potsmokers who died from health-related diseases while alcohol and tobacco end the lives of millions worldwide every year
quote:
People have the full rights to their own bodies. What they do with them is noone else's business.
It's all about cultural conservatism.
I'm not a cannabis user myself, but I'm 100% pro social liberty. |
If you really believed people own themselves, you'd support their economic freedom as well since their time is their own, including the time they expend producing wealth in the marketplace.
Paiktis - quote:
It also makes me smile saddly when I see people fighting for it like it is the most important thing on earth |
Yes, of all the things to fight for, freedom just isn't that important. Better to spend our time like you, trying to take freedom away from others, such a noble endeavor.
Osweld - quote:
People should know better then to consume any sort of drug |
Yeah, how dare them people with AIDS using pot to increase their appetite.
Dr Oogkloot - quote:
One thing that I don't understand - if marijuana is legalized and "taxed the hell out of", won't there still be a black market, etc. because people want to avoid these taxes? |
Exactly! Taxing the hell out of something defeats the purpose of legalizing a product to eliminate the black market. I was watching a congressional hearing chaired by Orrin Hatch in which people were testifying how crime had increased in California after the Rob Reiner tax increase on tobacco.
Dr Strangelove - quote:
Marijuana, like alcohol, interferes with reflexes, cognition, thought processes, and judgement, but unlike alcohol it's effects seem to linger after it has been removed from the blood. |
Even comparing the two as if they were anywhere close to equal is fallacious. And apparently you've never associated with an alcoholic, their entire existence revolves around getting their next "fix"
which certainly does have long term effects.
quote:
Alcohol is removed from the blood at rate equivalent to one beer or cocktail every one to two hours. A moderate intake of marijuana would be cleared from the blood overnight, but it will continue to impair the users reflexes and judgement through the next day. |
This "lingering" effect is neglible, and alcohol is not removed from the system as fast as you claim. Only what appears in the blood with our current measuring instruments. And alcohol causes real damage to the liver and arteries that end up taking their roll later on in life.
quote:
Marijuana does kill people. If you have a motor vehicle accident or shoot somebody while under the influence of marijuana because your reflexes and judgement is impaired, then it's safe to say that the victim's death was caused by marijuana. |
No one here claimed some people don't die from auto accidents, we were disputing the claim that marijuana kills people through health related diseases.
And no, it's not "safe" to say the victim's death was caused by marijuana, it was caused by someone driving under the influence. No one is arguing for the legalization of driving under the influence.
quote:
After all, relatively few people die from the direct toxic effects of alcohol these days, but thousands are killed by accidents or homicides caused by alcohol. |
More people end up dying from alcohol-related diseases than drunk drivers.
quote:
It would be difficult to say because most people who toke up also drink and do other drugs |
But when a motorist kills someone and alcohol and marijuana were consumed by the motorist, the prohibitionists point to the marijuana and not the alcohol.
quote:
The DOT has claimed that "substance abuse" other than alcohol accounts for about 15% of all traffic fatalities. I don't know the stats for homicides |
And what percentage of this is just marijuana? How many people are killed because of motorists fumbling with cigarettes, cell phones, or the radio? Of course, the prohibitionists point to stats like this to support their desire to punish people who don't drive under the influence, but what they ignore is that these stats were compiled with prohibition in place. If people could legally use or make drugs on their own property, they wouldn't need to take their activities out onto the street.
quote:
When you argue that marijuana should be legalized because alcohol is, don't make the assumption that everyone is happy with the legalization of alcohol. In the early 1930's the anti prohibition crowd played fast and loose with the facts in order to convince Congress to repeal the Prohibition Amendment. We'd be better off if their big money hadn't bought off the government. |
Geez, it was big money that got marijuana banned in the first place. Large corporations like the Hearsts, Dupont, and the lumber industry didn't want to compete with hemp.
quote:
Here's a suggestion for you legalization guys: Go down to your local ER sometime. Ask the head nurse if, the next time they get a fatality from an accident or shooting caused by drugs, they would allow you to help clean up the body. If you meet with resistance just tell them you're with a pro drug legalization crowd and that I sent you. |
Okay, the next time someone is killed by another person who wants money, can you do the same because you want legalized money? Or how about you take your own advice the next time someone is killed by a sober motorist since you want cars legal? Or better yet, if you support legalized alcohol, you go down to the ER and clean up the victims of drunk drivers. I'm tired of these pathetic strawmen, no one is arguing for driving under the influence. The only "valid" argument your side can make is whether or not legalization will increase or decrease drug consumption. Marijuana is legal in India, yet the US is the largest consumer of drugs. And no, telling me people in India are too poor to buy drugs won't work. Marijauna is a weed and can grow in India without expensive apparatus.
quote:
Asher- a few years ago the Canadian government tried instituting a massive tax on cigarettes. The result was the rapid formation of cigarette smuggling rings which ferried the butts across the Great Lakes form the US to Canada. When the Canadians stepped up their attempts to intercept this traffic the thugs began shooting Canadian police. Eventually Canada scaled back the tax. |
Hmm...then why don't you go down to the local ER and clean up the bodies of people killed to enforce your desire to punish people who use marijuana?
Are you oblivious to the fact the info about Canada's attempt to restrict tobacco also applies to your attempt to restrict marijuana use?
Gareth - quote:
The people that want it legalised are usually people who have never smoked before trying to look cool. |
Or people who believe in freedom.
Folks, this issue is quite simple. Punishing the innocent because of the guilty is evil! And that is what you're doing. Look at the arguments here: "some potsmokers kill others in accidents". True, and some people who don't use drugs also kill people in accidents. Should all the people who don't use drugs be punished? You would not make such an argument when you're the ones to be punished.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Gareth Edmunson
I like it being illegal. There's always the slightest remotest chance of getting caught, but other than that its a good thing. It keeps prices down and makes it easy to get. |
You've smoked a little too much, my friend.
You also appear to be one of those people who smoke it because it is illegal.
quote:
As a heavy weed smoker, it being illegal is good. I don't want the governments greedy hands all over it. Plus you know if it were regulated, we'd end up with the weakest crap you could find. |
Or vice versa. In Canada, the federally grown (by the government) stuff is entirely pure.
quote:
The people that want it legalised are usually people who have never smoked before trying to look cool. |
Or the people who have almost got arrested with it, or the people who wonder why the hell it's so bad when cigarettes and alcohol still are legal, or the people who aren't doing it just because it's illegal.
quote:
What would it solve by legalising it? If you think it would eliminate the black market for it, you're dreaming. |
Kinda like the end of prohibition didn't stop the majority of the black market for alcohol, right?
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:17
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Juggernaut - If you want a welfare state, then that is what you want, but that isn't a belief in self-ownership.
Ted - quote:
Look how long your post was Berzerker. I'd say you've smoked too much and are way in denial. |
So you determine who smokes pot and who does not based on the length of their posts?
quote:
Bullsh1t. Source? You? Did you count them all? |
The number comes from government polling (H.H.S. and Dept of Education)typically done in schools over the last 30 or so years.
quote:
You know I used to keep an open mind about you pot smokers, but after seeing some of you destroy yourselves (Killing Me Softly), I have absolutley no tolerance for the BS excuses you all are so creative at coming up with to affirm your pathetic little habit. |
As opposed to your pathetic habit of insulting people from behind a computer?
quote:
So what do you tell your kids about pot, Berzerker? |
I tell them not to use it while living under my roof. If they choose to use it after they are on their own - as adults, then that is for them to decide. I don't want my kids using alcohol or tobacco either, does that mean I must insist on having everyone else put in cages for using these drugs? I don't want them driving cars, should driving be illegal? Do you have children? If so, what do you tell them about the differences between adults and children?
quote:
No, it just destroys the brain. But hey, sh1t happens, aye? |
I'll quote you here:
Last edited by Berzerker on 24-12-2001 at 18:13
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24-12-2001 05:37
What about disabling post count in OT because of some lame spamming trolls that is now all emperors. 
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