23-12-2001 13:01									#1
	Marijuana Legalization - Why Not? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Why isn't Marijuana legalized? Really?

People who want to smoke it still smoke it. But they do so via the government-created black market. Having it illegal actually hurts the government in a few ways: Lost revenue from potential taxes, the cost to enforce the anti-drug laws, and by branding everyday citizens as criminals for doing something no worse than drinking. Then to take it a step farther, the money generated on this black market usually ends back up in the hands of gangs or other cartels, which use it to fund real illegal activity, which in turn raises the cost to the government (as well as crime rate).

If alcohol is legal, why is Marijuana illegal?

	23-12-2001 16:22									#2
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I agree, the thing between alcohol and marijuana comes down to one of social acceptability. However the tables are turning on this one, and the current laws are unworkable. In the UK they have deregulated marijuana down to a lower class, so it is slowly sliding down as the government just don't assign the same priority to it now. Perhaps they will eventually legalise it, it has significant support within the house of commons (and probably the lords as a lot of them would smoke it )

	23-12-2001 18:14									#3
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Yes, the difference is indeed social acceptability. There's no way the government can get away with banning alcohol- so many people use it anyway that the system would collapse. This, however, is not the case with weed. Here, a ban shows the government as a socially responsible entity, an arm of society as a whole, which strongly condemns the use of a known harmful substance. And it works. Sweden has the biggest public support for strong anti-pot laws (93% in recent polls) and some of the lowest usage in the western world (10% or thereabouts). So, quite simply- stronger laws reduce Marijuana usage through sending a negative message, weaker laws increase it by sending a positive message.

And surely a reduced Marijuana usage is something worth fighting for.

	23-12-2001 18:20									#4
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I have to agree with snapcase on this one, legalization you might think would reduce consumption would actually increase it in my opinion. So I think extremely tough laws against the use would be the only way to curb it. In the US there isnīt support for the legalization of marijuana. Plus, if it was legalized the DEA wouldnīt have a point to exist and I donīt think government would want to do away with the DEA.

	23-12-2001 18:59									#5
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Legalize, and tax, marijuana.
Rather than the government wasting millions, why not make millions?

Do something besides talk about it here.
Join N.O.R.M.L. www.norml.org
National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws.

Last edited by SlowwHand on 23-12-2001 at 19:07

	23-12-2001 19:04									#6
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Here in Ontario for alcohol we have the LCBO (liquor control board - it sells alcohol for retail) and the LLBO (liquor licensing board - it licenses restauraunts). We should make the MCBO and the MLBO for marjuana and tax it to hell.

	23-12-2001 21:15									#7
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I am not against pot however im gonna try to argue a counter proposal.
First of all, from a Christian perspective,
You are suppose to treat your body as a temple, smoking pot destroys your body.
You are suppose to obey the laws of the land, if the law says dont smoke it, then you dont smoke it.
Second of all, from a crime statistic.
People who smoke pot more often then not move into more hardcore drugs.
Someone under the influence of pot still suffers from delayed reaction time and becomes more clumsy (i know this from experience) and more likely to not be able to control motor vehicles, while this can also be said of alcohol, it is much easier to tell if someone is under the influence of alcohol then it is pot (i.e. breathalyzer)
And lastly,
Smoking one joint is like smoking a pack of cigarettes at once when comparing the amount of damage it does to your lungs, one might argue that it is ones choice whether or not to destroy your own body, however in the long run the entire populace have to pay for ones medical bills.

Just a counter-proposal, nothing more, nothing less

	23-12-2001 21:27									#8
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Except that you're wrong.
If you want to take a creationist's viewpoint, make it accurate.
God created all on earth, to include plants.
This includes marijuana in it's natural state.
When you get into man altered substances, including the ingredients in alcohol, then you have a point.

	23-12-2001 22:11									#9
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quote: Smoking one joint is like smoking a pack of cigarettes at once when comparing the amount of damage it does to your lungs, one might argue that it is ones choice whether or not to destroy your own body, however in the long run the entire populace have to pay for ones medical bills.

D'uh. There's actually less tobacco in a joint, due to that the substance is mixed with cannabis. Plus, people commonly share joints with 3-4 others. On a lung perspective, smoking one joint is thus like smoking 1/4 of a Marlboro Light. There's yet to be one single death victim due to cannabis usage. How many lives have alcohole taken? Millions?

I also disagree with cannabis banning from a philosophical perspective. People have the full rights to their own bodies. What they do with them is noone else's business.
It's all about cultural conservatism.

I'm not a cannabis user myself, but I'm 100% pro social liberty.

	23-12-2001 22:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Except that you're wrong. If you want to take a creationist's viewpoint, make it accurate. God created all on earth, to include plants. This includes marijuana in it's natural state. When you get into man altered substances, including the ingredients in alcohol, then you have a point.

It was a counter proposal , in which I dont believe in the first place, just practicing debate, however, I will attempt to prove how your thinking is clouded my friend. Frist the bible tells us to treat our bodies like a temple, smoking anything destroys our bodies and clouds are judgement, two things in which the bible tells us not to do. Second, the bible tells us it is ok to imbibe (i dont think i spelled that right) alchohol but not to over indulge. I cant remember anytime where someone has smoked and not overindulged, one hit gives u a buzz. Yes the bible does tell us that God gave us all the seed and herb bearing plants to use, however, we are suppose to understand what that means. Does it mean that we are suppose to smoke it, I dont think so. Does it mean we should harvest hemp to make clothes and rope and paper because it is better then destroying forest for the same thing, I do think so. You must use comon sense here.

	23-12-2001 22:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Juggernaut D'uh. There's actually less tobacco in a joint, due to that the substance is mixed with cannabis. Plus, people commonly share joints with 3-4 others. On a lung perspective, smoking one joint is thus like smoking 1/4 of a Marlboro Light.

Not everybody shares, I used to Bogart them

quote: Originally posted by Juggernaut There's yet to be one single death victim due to cannabis usage. How many lives have alcohole taken? Millions?

I can name a few. First off Toonces, the driving cat. That cat dies many times and I for one am sure that that cat was a stoner

quote: Originally posted by Juggernaut I also disagree with cannabis banning from a philosophical perspective. People have the full rights to their own bodies. What they do with them is noone else's business. It's all about cultural conservatism. I'm not a cannabis user myself, but I'm 100% pro social liberty.

Philosophical reasons, when those people get lung cancer, Its gonna be my tax dollars that take care of them. Its gonna be your tax dollars that take care of them. From personal experience, most of the people I know that still smoke pot live with their folks, live in public housing, or are barely squeaking by.
Most of these folks (that i know) dont keep a steady job and are dependant on the government to live, and then spend their own money on pot, which leads to another pet peave of mine, and this is actually a pet peave. People who use food stamps at the Grocery store and then buy beer with cash. Where do those food stamps come from. They come from my tax dollars. Im paying taxes so these trailer trash imbred rednecks can get drunk.

again, just a counter proposal, nothing more nothing less

	23-12-2001 22:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase stronger laws reduce Marijuana usage through sending a negative message, weaker laws increase it by sending a positive message.

When they legalized cannabis in the Netherlands in 1976, the usage amongst 15-16 year olds was about 3%, same number for 17-18 yer olds was 10%. 10 years after the legalization were the numbers 2% respectively 6%. To compare with restrictive US's High School students' 59%!
I think that tell us that a more liberal aproach actually diminish the problem, not the other way round. Banning is generally bad.
The only critisiscm I have of Netherlands' Drug Politics is that they didn't went the whole way and legalized hard drugs as well. The government do give out pure needles however, this is not a way to encourage narcotica usage, but is seen as a way to save lives.

	23-12-2001 22:40									#13
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I know this makes me "unpolular" but I don't think marijuana should be legalized.

It also makes me smile saddly when I see people fighting for it like it is the most important thing on earth

	23-12-2001 22:56									#14
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quote: Philosophical reasons, when those people get lung cancer

Like I said, there is no evidence of a connection between cannabis usage and lung cancer.
Imagine yourself, how big is the risk of attracting lung cancer if smoking one cigarrette a day.

quote: From personal experience, most of the people I know that still smoke pot live with their folks, live in public housing, or are barely squeaking by.

Yes, and yet the drugs are prohibited. Contente: banning doesn't decrease the actual problem. People will always use escapistic substances, whether you allow them to or not. Just look at the alcohol banning in the '30's. Whole crime syndicates were spawned out of the blue. But if you wanna continue feeding the black market and criminals, that's fine with me.

Just a counter-proposal, nothing else.

	23-12-2001 22:59									#15
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People should know better then to consume any sort of drug.

	23-12-2001 23:16									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Juggernaut When they legalized cannabis in the Netherlands in 1976, the usage amongst 15-16 year olds was about 3%, same number for 17-18 yer olds was 10%. 10 years after the legalization were the numbers 2% respectively 6%. To compare with restrictive US's High School students' 59%! I think that tell us that a more liberal aproach actually diminish the problem, not the other way round. Banning is generally bad. The only critisiscm I have of Netherlands' Drug Politics is that they didn't went the whole way and legalized hard drugs as well. The government do give out pure needles however, this is not a way to encourage narcotica usage, but is seen as a way to save lives.

With I do respect, though my opinion is extremely unpopular around here, I think we should increase the sentence for drug related crimes. We should strengthen the DEA and give the Drug Dealers hell. If we want to fight this problem we must not legalize because that will make it worse, but we must increase the funding for the Drug Enforcement Agency, and double prision sentences. A hard offense is the best defense.

	23-12-2001 23:49									#17
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quote: we must not legalize because that will make it worse

Yes, exactly what my quoted post claimed...

quote: We should strengthen the DEA and give the Drug Dealers hell

Yes, go ahead and strengthen the Colombian drug mafia...

	23-12-2001 23:55									#18
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The Marijuana you smoke is not natural Sloww..its heavily fortified with THC that wouldnt be there otherwise. It creates a bigger high.

And ya it ****s you up. I smoked lots of it....it hurts your mathematical/coping skills alot.

	24-12-2001 00:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Juggernaut Yes, go ahead and strengthen the Colombian drug mafia...

No it is the other way around. If we legalize it will strengthen the drug cartels because the prices will drop. Though some smaller cartels would be put out of business, the larger ones would start to grow more, have demand from those in the US who previously could not afford the illegalized marijuana and the whole situation would blow itself out of proportions.

I believe we must send troops into these areas and wipe them out. Specifically Colombia. The drug cartels in Colombia are controlled the AUC, ELN and FARC. All must be destroyed because they are terrorist groups, and all terrorist groups must be eliminated and the fact that they are screwing up the country aiming for false ideals. I think the Colombian Government should passes articles of war, deploying its entire 125,000 men Army.

	24-12-2001 01:11									#20
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Almost half a million non-violent drug offenders are currently locked up in the US prison system. Weed abusers are not the only people who deserve their freedom.

I believe that there are currently trial runs of heroin legalization in London and Geneva. Hopefully their success will lead to the legalization of hard drugs accross Europe.

quote: have demand from those in the US who previously could not afford the illegalized marijuana and the whole situation would blow itself out of proportions.

Everyone can already afford marijuana in the US. If I really wanted to, I could get some weed right now for very little money. The cost is not prohibitive.

quote: and the whole situation would blow itself out of proportions.

Learn some economics, BAM. By criminalizing mj, we're artificially increasing the price, and therefore the supply.

quote: The drug cartels in Colombia are controlled the AUC, ELN and FARC.

The guerillas are about as complicit in drug trafficking as the Colombian state.

quote: All must be destroyed because they are terrorist groups, and all terrorist groups must be eliminated and the fact that they are screwing up the country aiming for false ideals.

Yep, the terrorist Colombian state also needs to be destroyed.

	24-12-2001 01:27									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No it is the other way around. If we legalize it will strengthen the drug cartels because the prices will drop. Though some smaller cartels would be put out of business, the larger ones would start to grow more, have demand from those in the US who previously could not afford the illegalized marijuana and the whole situation would blow itself out of proportions.

Uhm...if we legalize there will no longer be any drug cartels... That's kinda the point with legalization..
Drugs will be handled by the government. Which drugs do you think buyers prefer: expensive, unsecure, possibly mixtured drugs, or drugs cheaper, sold open over counters, quality-assured, federally approved by the Drug Agency?
Each year, thousands of addicts die from mixtured drugs. Each year we lose millions on not selling narcotica. There are potential jobs for the unemployeds in this business, people shouldn't have to turn to illegal sellers.

	24-12-2001 02:08									#22
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I know this makes me "unpolular" but I don't think marijuana should be legalized. It also makes me smile saddly when I see people fighting for it like it is the most important thing on earth

There's more to it than that. It's more of a symbol of the government today...

Really, why does the government ban marijuana when using the stuff isn't any more addictive than alcohol? It's not any more damaging than alcohol... and right now, many people are dying because they're smoking some mixed drugs (somebody already touched on this). If the government legalized it, the same people who are doing it now will probably continue (unless it suddenly becomes uncool now that it's legal and that's all they care about). But because it's now legalized, the government can ensure the stuff isn't tainted, the drug cartels would collapse (and therefore crime rate), the government can make a fortune off of taxing the stuff like they do for cigarettes.

If they're going to keep weed banned, I want to see them ban cigarettes and alcohol as well. And if they do that, I'm moving to the Netherlands.

	24-12-2001 02:11									#23
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quote: [SIZE=1] We should make the MCBO and the MLBO for marjuana and tax it to hell.

How very Canadians of you...

	24-12-2001 02:27									#24
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 It also makes me smile saddly when I see people fighting for it like it is the most important thing on earth

Illegal drug business actually affects society more than one believes. It causes crime, prostitution, spreads contagion, power to criminal groups, overdoses - to name some of the disastrous consequences.
Just think - how do we best spawn criminal activity? A: We illegalize something.
How do we best decrease criminal activity? A: We legalize something. If it isn't restricted, it will not be handled by criminal groups due to simple demand & supply-side economics.

	24-12-2001 03:11									#25
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Forget this... it is like the other opinion is not allowed.

I get called BAM if I even try to express my opinion. The other opinion is unsupported. The drug war will continue with body bags of drug dealers and traffikers as a result. The Colombian Army is declaring victory over the rebels, and has killed over 2,000 in the last three months. The Army estimates it lost less than a 100.

	24-12-2001 03:53									#26
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Oh, you poow widdle baby. Do you want a wowwy pop?

	24-12-2001 04:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Oh, you poow widdle baby. Do you want a wowwy pop?

This is exactly why some people here are communist *******s without a clue. They go ahead and call me BAM when themselves have nothing to back up their saying.

	24-12-2001 04:27									#28
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One thing that I don't understand - if marijuana is legalized and "taxed the hell out of", won't there still be a black market, etc. because people want to avoid these taxes?

	24-12-2001 04:42									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dr.Oogkloot One thing that I don't understand - if marijuana is legalized and "taxed the hell out of", won't there still be a black market, etc. because people want to avoid these taxes?

In the same sense, look at the huge black market for cigarettes...

	24-12-2001 05:37									#30
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Also it's harder to do on the spot tests for it so stoned drivers would be a problem.........