24-12-2001 20:55									#1
	large & huge maps why?? impossible due to waste&coruption Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

well i am allways playing on large maps,but i am now in a game where i have like 60 or 70 towns (on the same continent).
the towns farest from my palace or fp are producing 1 shield and if i want to build something there well only hurrying will do the thing
when i was in democraty (and i was a long time) all was ok
but now i am at war and in a communist gov and well .....
so my question is why they added the option to play on large and huge maps if its allmost impossible to play conquest on them
next game will be on a normal map unless i find a sollution for this problem
turning them in money producers is not a solution and hurrying can work for a while but after a few times civil disorder will stop growt since you have to put entertainers.
i am playing on regent.

	24-12-2001 21:04									#2
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You might help it a little by going into the Editor and putting the "maximum" cities higher. The default value is 32 for huge maps. The patch brought corruption down some, but not a lot.

	24-12-2001 21:15									#3
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You can still conquer. You just can't do it (as a practical matter) with units produced in far-away conquered cities. This isn't terrible, or unhistoric; I don't recall the US recruiting a lot of Japanese from Okinawa to help finish off the empire ...

You just have to have your base continent crank out tanks, and ship 'em. Put an airport in the first far-away conquered city, and lots of airports in the home area, and this won't be any problem.

In conquered cities, I mainly focus on building temples, to extend the borders and get closer to the 2/3 of the squares necessary for domination.

	24-12-2001 21:22									#4
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quote: You might help it a little by going into the Editor and putting the "maximum" cities higher. The default value is 32 for huge maps. The patch brought corruption down some, but not a lot.

hm...yes maybe but i think there must be a solution other then hacking the game...
anyway thx for the info

quote: You can still conquer. You just can't do it (as a practical matter) with units produced in far-away conquered cities. This isn't terrible, or unhistoric; I don't recall the US recruiting a lot of Japanese from Okinawa to help finish off the empire ...

you have a point here,but on a large map it's kinda sloooow......to move your units to the other end of the world.

	24-12-2001 22:42									#5
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Why do you need those cities to produce anything? Put no more than walls and temple, maybe a barracks if you need to defend there. Get the 1 shield and move on. I only want the city (if I want it) to allow use of the roads. You can make a case for not even putting in walls or temple if no actions is going on in that area. I leave a mech and forget it. Once I am on the move to eliminate that civ they will not have an army to attack with. In any even the RR will allow me to get there in force if needed.

	25-12-2001 03:06									#6
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60 or 70 cities and you are complaining? Get the he11 out of here. How big of an empire do you want?

I play huge continental maps and I rarely have more than 50 cities, and usually anything over 30 are just there as a buffer between me and other civs. I keep the population at whatever happiness it can support and build no buildings (maybe a temple), put a couple defenders and let it sit there.

No offense, but I just don't understand what it is you want corruption to be? Like someone else mentioned, raise the number of cities permitted, otherwise live with it. Remember, more isn't necessarily better.

	25-12-2001 13:58									#7
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quote: 60 or 70 cities and you are complaining? Get the he11 out of here. How big of an empire do you want?

i am not complaining,but when i had like 50 to 60 city's the ai's town started to revert and if this goes on at the same pace i will have near the end of the game all towns on that continent and that will then be far over the 100 city's so .......from wich maybe 40 will produce shields
and yes i dont really need those towns,best part is if the ai bombard coasts it is those city's he bombs ....who cares...
but i just would like to see that those city's with a courthhouse still would produce at least 4 shield ore more well at least the 20+ city's !

	05-01-2002 07:39									#8
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Well, I wouldn't say it's impossible to play on huge maps....it's just that if you build any cities too far away from your capital/forbidden palace, they'll be useless

	05-01-2002 11:44									#9
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In late stages of the game, I normally have 6 to 8 cities around the capital and another 6 to 8 around the forbidden city that are well developed, and each producing 50 to 100 shields per turn. Another 6 to 10 remote cities are producing 20 to 40 shields per turn. This productivity translates to about 10 modern armours per term. Any cities above this number does not increase the productivity, however, it does add to the final score ( land + population). The huge map breeds big and powerful AIs. In one game I battled with Babylon who had 40 cities and was producing 5 to 10 tanks per term. It was fun. In this game, I saw Babylon sent 50 calvary to conquer a Chinese city. During the heat the war (Persian allied with Babylon against Aztec + Zulu + Iroq (me)), I witnessed that a leader was produced almost every other term. Some of the AI's leaders were destroyed immediately. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw a Zulu Army loaded with two calvary and a conscript rifleman. Definitively, large or huge maps is fun to play.

	05-01-2002 13:18									#10
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Get luxuries and build marketplaces. I've found that "We love the Mahatma day" was more effective at reducing corruption than Courthouse/Police Station combined (or maybe it was the combo of all 3).

I thought Mahatma was his name, not his title.

Anyway, I'd go into the editor, make a tiny map, change the rules so that various other improvements also reduce corruption:

Banks, since banks keep records, and that leaves a trail allowing criminals to be caught.

Barracks, since that implies that there's guards around to catch these people.

Temple, since spiritual people commit fewer crimes. (Well, against your own people, but against the enemy's Pentagon...)

Heck, why try and justify it. Just add "reduce corruption" to a whole horde of improvements reduce corruption. You're not unbalancing the game, since the AI can use this too.

Now, when you want to play a random map, load the Tiny scenario, and then go to the map editor, you can switch the size and everything else, and still play with your modified rules.

	09-01-2002 02:37									#11
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quote: Originally posted by jan3 you have a point here,but on a large map it's kinda sloooow......to move your units to the other end of the world.

Rush buy an airport in a conquered town on the enemy continent and you can move lots of units over in each turn. On the other hand, I agree that corruption on huge maps s*ck. I personally prefer to play on a huge earth map, but I have fears that I will grow bored of it due to the corruption. The scoring system does not encourage peaceful playing, and conquest is a pain on these huge maps.

	09-01-2002 03:39									#12
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Olaf, what does corruption have to due with bordom? The core cities will do all of the prod and research and the corrupt cities are used to provide access to roads and deny them to the AI (and add to score). I just put in the min stuff and they just sit ther adding 1 gold each turn. If I have SUN wonder they get the barracks, if I have wonder for free Granary, fine, then maybe a temple.

	09-01-2002 07:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung Get luxuries and build marketplaces. I've found that "We love the Mahatma day" was more effective at reducing corruption than Courthouse/Police Station combined (or maybe it was the combo of all 3). I thought Mahatma was his name, not his title.

Nope. His name was "Mohandas" (or possibly "Mohandes").

Mahatma loosely translates as "master", I think, and Gandhi preferred that people use his name instead of that title.

- ICMB

	09-01-2002 22:55									#14
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50 - 60 cities? I have close to 250 cities on my huge map game. After a certain point, i just build a library for the culture and expanding borders and not even garrison the city...

as for the airport idea - it works! every good city i have (maybe 40 to 50 out of the total) has an airport in it. as soon as the city builds a unit, i just ship the unit to the front - i know it is very micromanaging, but that is the bane of huge maps.

	09-01-2002 23:37									#15
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Yes that is why I play noting more than Large and very few of those. Standard is enough. I only use airports in a few cities as I like Pangea maps and you can use RR to get anywhere (for the most part).

	10-01-2002 01:04									#16
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I really don't know what you people are talking about. I play only home-made large maps (about 70-75% land mass - I don't like too much water... it's too ...wet ) and random XL maps and I rarely use more than 8 civs (above that number the AI turns take AGES, so I stick to 8 when L-XL) so I end up with a vast amount of cities, between 60 and 120 (depending on the map).

Well, with only two tweaks in the editor, I am able to enjoy quite a corruption-less empire: The city limit goes up to 56-72 (again, depending on the map size) and Police station get an adittional flag "reduce corruption".

That's it.

Even with this tweaking, the very far away cities produce didly, so what I am doing is rushbuilding every single improvement there is!

Are you people telling me you are deep into the modern times, have 60-100 cities available and don't have the cash to rushbuild everything??? In my current game I am making 3500 gold per turn (at average) and I barely - while rushbuilding every single improvement - am spending 70% of that sum.

So, gimme a break. If you don't mind some extra micromanagement, corruption is not an issue. If you do some tweaking to the optimal number of cities, that is. It's not hacking, silly. It's tweaking

Last edited by Rosacrux on 10-01-2002 at 01:15

	10-01-2002 02:36									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Olaf, what does corruption have to due with bordom? The core cities will do all of the prod and research and the corrupt cities are used to provide access to roads and deny them to the AI (and add to score). I just put in the min stuff and they just sit ther adding 1 gold each turn. If I have SUN wonder they get the barracks, if I have wonder for free Granary, fine, then maybe a temple.

It is so boring to rush buy everything, as it needs much more micro management. In peaceful times, I normally build units in my central cities, move them to the outposts and disband them there to get some shields faster. To optimise the score, a temple per city is not enough. You need hospitals, catedrals, marketplaces, mass transits etc to get as many happy citizens ans possible and reduce pollution. These improvements are expensive to rush buy and if you have 20-30 outpost cities, its hard to keep up even with 1000's of gold per turn. You also have to rebuild the terrain to get rid of the useless shields that are creating nothing but pollution and irrogate the land instead. An automated worker is not smart enough to understand this population optimisation, so you have to do everything manually (or is he, I haven't even tried).

	10-01-2002 09:42									#18
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What works for others is of interset, but if the editor is used it is of no value. It is apples to oranges. What we are saying is there is only one reason to bother with building up late cities, if you want to drive up your score as Olaf mentioned. I do not want to keep pounding (managing) more and more cities when the game is already in control. That is why I raze most of them unless I want the access to the roads. I usually do not stride to up my score. I would abandon once I am in the lead, but I want to see it finished.

	16-01-2002 02:49									#19
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Even with the patch, I think there’s still a core problem with the game mechanic of corruption. Here’s an example:

In a recent game, my Romans ended up on a smallish continent all alone. So I peacefully develop a small, but efficient empire until my guys learn how to sail the Big Water. I find the Chinese nearby, also on a continent all alone. I build up my military, sail over and wipe them out. It doubles the number of cities I have.

Here’s the problem. ONE THOUSAND YEARS LATER, none of those cities can yet produce more than one shield. That’s just plain dopey. Those aren’t conquered Chinese cities anymore. The Chinese are an archeological dig. Those are Roman cities.

Over a period of time, the corruption of conquered cities should decline until it’s the same level as a city I build at the same distance. Doesn’t happen. It doesn't goof things up too badly, but it’s definitely an irksome oversight.

Cheers

	16-01-2002 03:43									#20
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Actually corruption isn't affected by who built the city. In captured cities, it is still determined by total number of cities, distance from the palace, happiness level, and whether courthouses and police stations are present. You can test this by disbanding one of the "chinese" cities, and building a city in its place with your own settler. The new city should have the exact same corruption as the old one.

	16-01-2002 23:54									#21
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True. Until I add an improvement like an airport. Then, I'll gain another three or four shields production from "my" city, but nothing additional from the "conquered" city.

I understand the design goal of the corruption mechanic. It's just that the percentages still seem way out of whack, especially when you move into the late industrial and modern ages. You can build a distant city that generates, say, 35 shields, and still only realize 1 shield for production purposes. The attenuation of the percentages seems very steep.

	18-01-2002 10:23									#22
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The main benefit of bigger maps is high score. Small maps are just as challenging IMO.

	19-01-2002 01:12									#23
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I guess I probably need to play through this thing about a bazillion times before I try to expound on how game mechanics work. Upon further experimentation, it’s starting to look like the corruption effects on ‘conquered’ cities is influenced to a great degree by the nationality composition of the population.

In a game just completed, I had a number of distant, ‘conquered’ cities that were indeed able to generate useful amounts of shields and gold. Not huge, but more than one of each. The trick was that when I conquered the cities, they were only at size 1 or 2. When they grew to size 6 or 7, of course, all of those additional citizens said stuff like ‘Happy Roman Worker’ (I was playing the Romans) instead of ‘Happy Russian Worker’. Conquered cities nearby that still had a higher percentage of Russians produced for crap, but the ones with only 1 or 2 Russians and a bunch of Romans would lose maybe only 60 percent of their output to corruption.

Do other folks see this pattern as well?

The experiment continues…

	19-01-2002 02:16									#24
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Check the distance to your capital or forbidden palace. That should explain the differences. Other corruption reducers are the two buildings (court and cop shop) and WLTKD.

	19-01-2002 02:48									#25
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Yep. I know about those. I’m just looking at the corruption vs population differences between ‘conquered’ and ‘native’ cities, where all other factors are basically equal. The cities with a higher ‘conquered’ population always seem to maintain higher rates of corruption.

	19-01-2002 03:40									#26
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When I play on a large or huge map, I wait until my borders are well defined and there is really no more land left unclaimed by culture before I decide where to place my forbid palace. Because even though you can always change the location of the regualr palace, the forbid palace is locked in its location, so I want to place both in a good location depending on my "shape".

	20-01-2002 10:32									#27
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The Corruption in this game is implemented horrendously! I can understand why a recently conquered city would be corrupt and unproductive, but why would a city founded by your own citizens be completely useless simply because it is a long way from the capital? It doesn't make sense, especially under Democracy. Why wouldn't a democracy be able to keep control over a its own citzens just because the city is far away? Honolulu is a long way from D.C., but it isn't crippled by corruption. My biggest complaint is that after a certain point all of your cities become super corrupt, meaning that they only produce 1 shield and 1 commerce and can't be relieved by building courthoses or other improvements. This takes the fun out of expansion, because any new city becomes a resource sucking liability. In my opinion, cities founded by your own civilization should never be super corrupt under any government except Despotism, and even then it should only affect cities that are very far away. My solution to this is to tie most of corruption's effects to the nationality of the city. The lower the percentage of your citizens reside in the city, the more corrupt a city is likely to be. If a city is composed of less than 20% of your own citizens, and is populated by a nationality that you are at war with, then a city should be super-corrupt. During peace times, a city that is populated by a large percentage of other nationalities should be a little more corrupt, and this corruption would lessen after time due to assimilation. Distance should affect corruption in the ancient governments, but not as much as it does now. Communism should have mild disance related corruption, but Democracy should not lose production in cities populated by its own nationality, no matter how far away the city is from the capital. Super corruption is ridiculous and takes alot of the fun away from the game for me, especially because there is nothing that you can do about it short of change the game rules! I think that the game should be playable as is, without changing the rules. What do others think?

	20-01-2002 10:55									#28
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Large & Huge Maps are not impossible, but getting substantial output from outlying cities may be. Expecting output from them is what is unreasonable. As already stated, they are good for a minimal increase in overall culture and for expanded borders, both good for cultural and domination victory conditions, and denying real estate to your opponents.

If you like long games* you can still play with larger maps as long as you don't demand all your cities be productive.

* Yes, I like long games. My most recent game, on a large map, lasted 6 weeks averaging 2-3 hours per day.