25-12-2001 16:05									#1
	Rep. & Demo. pop rushing (exploit) Full PM-box? Change here!

Simple if you have Nationalism.

Draft a Riflemen & then disband it. You get a 20 shields.
Good for 99% corrupt cities!

Still, you get unhappiness, but isn't pop rushing all about it.

To Firaxis: This whould be no problem if standard pop. rushes are more powerfull in modern era (but, they are not).

	25-12-2001 22:15									#2
	Support Apolyton

Sounds great.

How many shields do you get for dibanding units? I thought it was something like 20% of cost.

	25-12-2001 22:32									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Riflemen cost 80 shields. 1/4th of the cost.

One question, does draft just have cumulative unhappiness duration, or does it take more and more luxuries to counterbalance the more you do it?

At the very least though, you could disband the city and rebuild it if it gets too bad.

Good idea.

	25-12-2001 23:21									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think it is the same as for normall pop. rushing.

You won't get more than tot. pop. amount of unhappiness. Like 10 size city haping 10 unh. citizen. But with 6 luxuries and temple that's not a problem.

Since this unhappines is applied before other modifiers.
Wich makes it a little exploitive.

	26-12-2001 09:55									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

20 shields is exactly what you get when you use the whip to sacrifice 1 pop. In this respect, you actually get to use the "Despotic Whip" in Republic/Democracy. Just irrigate every square to maximise food, and keep drafting annd you can get 20 shields every few turns. Definitely an exploit.

	26-12-2001 15:06									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

But if normal-pop rushing becomes 60 (instead of 40) at first, 30 (instead 20) for second+ (all this after Nationalism), then this would be OK.

Yes, that's solution. Modern pop-rush is weak anyway (9 pops for Factory).

With that tweak Communism pop rush would be usefull, plus this Repubilc exploit would be much less worthy compared to real pop. rush.

Also mopdifing way how happiness is calculated would help.
Civ2 model is good (war unhappines as last modifier).
So if pop & draft rush (and war unhappines) are calculted at the end then it would be much more difficult to calm that unhappines.

The way it is now is A JOKE.

	27-12-2001 07:42									#7
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If you increase the number of shields for pop-rushing, you would also increase the power of the whip. I think pop-rushing is already powerful enough. Also, at the later stages, drafting gives you a Mech Infantry which can be disbanded for more shields. Are you going to change the figures again to compensate for that?
Another solution may be to simply disallow disbanding of conscripts to generate shields. The game already disallows IFE and disallows disbanding units to build Wonders, so this solution is somewhat similar. To make it easier to implement, make it such that only conscripts (2 hp) cannot be disbanded for shields, promoted conscripts (3 hp or more) can still be disbanded normally.

	27-12-2001 14:05									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Fistleaf If you increase the number of shields for pop-rushing, you would also increase the power of the whip. I think pop-rushing is already powerful enough.

Not enought powerfull in Industrial age:
9 shileds for Factory (6 my version)
3 for Cavalry (2 my version)
4 for Tank (3 my version)
but, 1 for con. Infanrty

No, my model doesn' t make it much more powerfull (it is suppsed to be USED ONLY after Nationalism)

Trick in making whip less effective is in happines caluculations.

quote: Originally posted by Fistleaf Also, at the later stages, drafting gives you a Mech Infantry which can be disbanded for more shields. Are you going to change the figures again to compensate for that? Another solution may be to simply disallow disbanding of conscripts to generate shields. The game already disallows IFE and disallows disbanding units to build Wonders, so this solution is somewhat similar. To make it easier to implement, make it such that only conscripts (2 hp) cannot be disbanded for shields, promoted conscripts (3 hp or more) can still be disbanded normally.

That could be nice sollution.

Also I would also like disallowing disbanding things in SPACE RACE.
I have heard so many tales when weak player finishes SPACE SHIP by disbanding Nukes.

	28-12-2001 06:41									#9
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I don't think you can disband stuff to build spaceship parts. The spaceship parts are supposed to be similar to Wonders.
I believe what happened was you start building a nuke, then when you get the technology, switch production to the spaceship part, without losing any shields. I should know, because I use it all the time.

	28-12-2001 09:28									#10
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Yes, I think it was disbandins.
Since Tactical is 300 and ICBM is 500 you'll get 75 or 125 shiled.
Lots of shields if you aks me.

This is esspecially usefull if you don't have techs for some Space .Ship parts.

You just "build" them in "advance" (for 4X cost).

And after you get a techs.
Space ship is finished.

Exploit if you ask me.

	29-12-2001 01:20									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It seems to me that the thing that is most "broken" is the idea of getting 20% sheilds for disbanding units. Strategically, the most useful part about disbanding should be to limit the amount of support $$ you spend. It just seems silly that you can get such a high return on a used tank, for instance, especially pre-recycling techs. What the heck is a city on the frontier going to do with a used Sherman that makes it so valuable????

Anyway, fix that and all these other probs go away. As a suggestion, make the return zero or 1% sheilds pre-recycling and 10% post-recycling of some sillyness like that. Make recycling worth getting anyway...

As it stands, I think it's a viable strategy to use "tanks for banks" and get around a lot of the corruption crapola. Wealth setting is pretty useless, I think, but I haven't done the math...

just my $.02

-mm