 |
| |
|
|
Oldenbarnevelt
|
 |
in the Dutch swamps
Sep 2001
time: 06:17
|
|
A large part of the attention Judaism gets is due to the fact that Judaism was, as it were, incorporated into Christianity. (Another way to say this, is that Christianity started as a Jewish sect.) First, Christians adopted the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament") as a holy book, then they devalued it by proclaiming that it was superseded by the New Testament, and that the Jews had lost their status of chosen people to the Church. Whenever a Christian speaks about Abraham, Moses, David, and even Jesus, he can't help "publicizing" Judaism. Christianity could never have existed without Judaism. (The same goes for Islam, which is also based in large part on the Hebrew Bible.) So if it's true that Judaism gets relatively much attention, there is a theological reason for that. Both the first Christians and the first Muslims have tried to woo the Jews over to their new religions, and their failure to do so has been a source of frustration and anti-Semitism to the present day.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Eli
|
|
Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:17
|
|
I'm searching for more updated numbers, but Israel now has 5,000,000 Jews, ex-USSR has at least 70-80% less, and Argentina has 200,000 Jews.
Also, those Jews around the world are the key to the survival of Israel. There are no chances for a major improvement in the Arab way/quality/whatever of life, so the birth rate will stay huge, and there is no chance for a Jewish majority to the west of the river in 15-25 years. So those 670,000 Jews in France, who already suffered 180 serious(no one counts the swastika sprayings on synagogues already) anti-semitic attacks in the last year, and the 200,000 Argentinian Jews must come here.
Not to mention the millions of the American Jews, who are assimilating in huge numbers(50% marry non Jews).
So, just like in the last 54 years, the future of Israel depends on the Aliyah.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
August Borms
|
 |
Antwerpen
Nov 2000
time: 06:17
|
|
Here's a more recent list:
It is estimated that there were 14,600,000 Jews in the world at the end of the year 2000, dispersed as follows:
United States 5,900,000
Israel 5,150,000
France 600,000
Russia 500,000
Canada 370,000
Ukraine 350,000
Britain 320,000
Argentina 260,000
Brazil 120,000
South Africa 110,000
Australia 110,000
Hungary 80,000
Germany 60,000
Belarus 50,000
Mexico 40,000
Belgium 40,000
Italy 35,000
Uzbekistan 35,000
Venezuela 35,000
Uruguay 33,000
Moldova 30,000
Azerbaijan 30,000
Holland 30,000
Iran 25,000
Turkey 25,000
Switzerland 20,000
Sweden 18,000
Georgia 17,000
Chile 15,000
Kazakstan 15,000
Romania 14,000
Latvia 14,000
Spain 14,000
Austria 10,000
Poland 8,000
Denmark 8,000
Morocco 8,000
Panama 7,000
Czech Republic 6,000
India 6,000
Lithuania 6,000
Slovakia 6,000
Colombia 6,000
Greece 5,000
New Zealand 5,000
Kyrgystan 4,000
Bulgaria 3,000
Estonia 3,000
Peru 3,000
Puerto Rico 3,000
Costa Rica 2,500
Hong Kong 2,500
Yugoslavia 2,500
Croatia 2,000
Japan 2,000
Tunisia 2,000
Tajikistan 2,000
Norway 1,500
Guatemala 1,200
Finland 1,200
Paraguay 1,200
Turkmenistan 1,200
Ireland 1,200
Cuba 1,000
Ecuador 1,000
Monaco 1,000
Portugal 1,000
Zimbabwe 1,000
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Natan
|
 |
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth Edmunson
I don't get why Israel is so anal about how many Jews they have. who cares what religion people beleive in as long as they're eating, happy and safe.
|
If everyone thought that way, there'd be no need for Israel, but people don't think that way and Jews can't rely on that changing any time soon.
quote:
I think Israel's policy on allowing people of the Jewish faith to "return" to Israel and get full citizenship is just a little bit backwards and ridiculous. Imagine if some western country did the same thing for Christians. Everyone would be all over them for it. I don't think the holocaust justifies it either.
|
Actually, Russia, Germany, and Hungary all have laws allowing people of Russian, German, or Magyar ethnicity respectively to immigrate and get full citizenship.
quote:
It may be a shame if the number of Jews in the world dwindles down to nothing, but honestly what difference does it make? "Culture" is kind of an outdated concept. Who cares about culture and religion? |
I think that statement is absurd, in particular, the last setnence. Most of the world cares about them quite a bit.
quote:
As far as I'm concerned, if everyone in the world only wore Old Navy and ate at McDonalds everyday, I wouldn't care as long as they're safe healthy and happy. It would kind of be a shame that all these cultures were gone, but who cares? Cultural diversity is interesting, but by no means necessary. |
Trust me, far more people care about ethnicity than agree with you. In fact, I daresay that many millions, if not billions, care more about culture and religion than safety, health, and happiness. That's the reason Jews are still here.
Transcend: As I understand it, both numbers are hotly debated because of semantic disputes and political pressure to inflate or deflate the numbers. In fact, while we're on it, I think the numbers which Assur gave us are too high about 500,000 to one million, since the numbers for eastern europe must include all people with some Jewish ancestry.
Drekkus: A person who converts to Judaism becomes a member of the Jewish people.
Eli: How about a better idea - instead of scrounging the world for dissappearing Jews, why not just become Haredi and have 6-8 kids each? In fact, you can speak the first part if you must, but you won't be as cool. 
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Gareth Edmunson
|
 |
Public Enemy #1
Aug 2000
time: 05:17
|
|
quote:
Actually, Russia, Germany, and Hungary all have laws allowing people of Russian, German, or Magyar ethnicity respectively to immigrate and get full citizenship. |
Which is only slightly less backwards and wrong, but at least its not based on religion. Most modern countries have a policy where if you can prove to be born to first or second generation emigrants from that country, you can acquire full citizenship. In Israel's case, its based on relgion. I could convert to Judaism today and go to Israel and get full citizenship. That like the UK saying all Christians from any country can go there and instantly acquire full citizenship. Backwards, backwards, backwards.
quote:
I think that statement is absurd, in particular, the last setnence. Most of the world cares about them quite a bit. [in response to my comment on if Jews dwindled down to nothing, it would be a shame for the sake of history and interest, but it doesn't matter because culture and relgion are irrelevant as long as people are eating and safe] |
People are people, it doesn't make any difference where you're from or what gods your parents believe in. Its this sort of backwards attitude that perpetuates anti-semitism and, more broadly, racism in general. No relgion needs a state working to perpetuate it. On the same note, I wouldn't care if every Christian in the world converted to Atheism. It doesn't matter.
quote:
If everyone thought that way, there'd be no need for Israel, but people don't think that way and Jews can't rely on that changing any time soon. |
There is no need for Israel... as it functions now. If Israel could function like a normal modern state and keep fukking religion and the state seperate, then I'd have no problem with it. This fukking "Law of Return" (which grants any Jew who sets foot on Israeli soil full citizenship automatically) is bullshiiit, backwards and racist. Jews and non-Jews should be allowed the same immigration rights. I don't know how anyone can justify this.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Natan
|
|
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
|
|
quote:
Which is only slightly less backwards and wrong, but at least its not based on religion. |
I'm not sure. I'd be very interested to look into how this is dealt with in the law of these respective countries, but I wonder if a Muslim could immigrate to Russia.
quote:
Most modern countries have a policy where if you can prove to be born to first or second generation emigrants from that country, you can acquire full citizenship. |
This has nothing to do with the laws in these countries, which are designed to allow people whose ancestors were never citizens of these states admittance on the basis of ethnicity - and I doubt gypsies will be allowed to come back to Hungary through its law of return.
quote:
In Israel's case, its based on relgion. I could convert to Judaism today and go to Israel and get full citizenship. That like the UK saying all Christians from any country can go there and instantly acquire full citizenship. Backwards, backwards, backwards. |
I don't really see what's wrong in either case. Besides, the only difference between Israel and the other countries with a law of return is that membership in the Jewish people is defined to a great extent by religion without being synonymous with the religion.
quote:
People are people, it doesn't make any difference where you're from or what gods your parents believe in. |
I beg to differ.
quote:
Its this sort of backwards attitude that perpetuates anti-semitism and, more broadly, racism in general. No relgion needs a state working to perpetuate it. On the same note, I wouldn't care if every Christian in the world converted to Atheism. It doesn't matter. |
To you, it doesn't, to most of the world's inhabitants, it does. Thank you for your opinion, let's get back to reality. Until everyone thinks like you do, Jews need some protection from those who don't.
quote:
There is no need for Israel... as it functions now. |
Seeing as millions of Jews had need of Israel as a place of refuge throughout this century, I beg to differ.
quote:
If Israel could function like a normal modern state and keep fukking religion and the state seperate, then I'd have no problem with it. |
Again, thank you for your opinion. However, the world is not in the business of trying to make sure you have no problem with it. Israelis are happy with their democratically elected government the way it is, no one is being deprived of their life, liberty, or property (unless you're an anarchist who thinks borders are immoral) so what's the big deal?
quote:
This fukking "Law of Return" (which grants any Jew who sets foot on Israeli soil full citizenship automatically) is bullshiiit, backwards and racist. Jews and non-Jews should be allowed the same immigration rights. I don't know how anyone can justify this. |
Again, how is this different from same laws existing in Germany, Hungary, and Russia? I don't get how you can be so riled up about a country deciding to let in extra immigrants based on this or that policy. Also, how can you attack the policy as racist when you yourself say that anyone who converts to Judaism can immigrate? That is precisely not racist.
quote:
Actually, Jews are followers of Judaism, just like Catholics are followers of Catholicsm. A jew who doesn't follow Jedaism is a non-practicing Jew. I know what you're saying though, you're reffering the ethnicity of people who descend from inhabitants of the lands currently known as Israel. These people are called "Hebrews". |
No, the ancient hebrew speaking inhabitans of the area are called Hebrews, and the word is sometimes used as a synonym for Jew. Of course Jews exist as an ethnic group as well as a religious one, even though they are defined by their religion. This is not so surprising, Arab's define their ethnicity similarly.
quote:
I Hewbrew can be Jewish, and many are, but they aren't neccesarily...a Hewbrew could just as easily be Christian or Muslim. |
Perhaps they can be Hewbrew, but not Hebrew.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gareth Edmunson
|
|
Public Enemy #1
Aug 2000
time: 05:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Natan
I'm not sure. I'd be very interested to look into how this is dealt with in the law of these respective countries, but I wonder if a Muslim could immigrate to Russia.
This has nothing to do with the laws in these countries, which are designed to allow people whose ancestors were never citizens of these states admittance on the basis of ethnicity - and I doubt gypsies will be allowed to come back to Hungary through its law of return.
I don't really see what's wrong in either case. Besides, the only difference between Israel and the other countries with a law of return is that membership in the Jewish people is defined to a great extent by religion without being synonymous with the religion.
I beg to differ.
To you, it doesn't, to most of the world's inhabitants, it does. Thank you for your opinion, let's get back to reality. Until everyone thinks like you do, Jews need some protection from those who don't.
Seeing as millions of Jews had need of Israel as a place of refuge throughout this century, I beg to differ.
Again, thank you for your opinion. However, the world is not in the business of trying to make sure you have no problem with it. Israelis are happy with their democratically elected government the way it is, no one is being deprived of their life, liberty, or property (unless you're an anarchist who thinks borders are immoral) so what's the big deal?
Again, how is this different from same laws existing in Germany, Hungary, and Russia? I don't get how you can be so riled up about a country deciding to let in extra immigrants based on this or that policy. Also, how can you attack the policy as racist when you yourself say that anyone who converts to Judaism can immigrate? That is precisely not racist.
No, the ancient hebrew speaking inhabitans of the area are called Hebrews, and the word is sometimes used as a synonym for Jew. Of course Jews exist as an ethnic group as well as a religious one, even though they are defined by their religion. This is not so surprising, Arab's define their ethnicity similarly.
Perhaps they can be Hewbrew, but not Hebrew. |
Ok, fine. All countries with any kind of Law of Return are backwards, but Israel gets me going more because its based on religion. Religion and the state have no business together.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying though. The State of Israel is showing favouritism towards members of one faith and yet it claims to be modern. What seperates Israel from the taliban or Iran in this respect? Not much... What if the United States starting allowing all Protestants instant citizenship? How would you feel about that?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Natan
|
|
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth Edmunson
Ok, fine. All countries with any kind of Law of Return are backwards, but Israel gets me going more because its based on religion. Religion and the state have no business together. |
Not necessarily.
quote:
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying though. The State of Israel is showing favouritism towards members of one faith and yet it claims to be modern |
IIRC, there are parts of Bavaria where a cross hangs in every school room, yet I don't think anyone would deny that Germany is a modern country.
quote:
What seperates Israel from the taliban or Iran in this respect? Not much...
What if the United States starting allowing all Protestants instant citizenship? How would you feel about that? |
As an American citizen, I support this country's founding ideals, including that in this country the government should not show faavoritism to any religion. However, I am not so arrogant as to demand that every nation also adhere to these principles. After all, England and many other countries have official churches, and I don't think it's a big deal. Also, recall that Jewish identity is both ethnic and religious, in that one can be a Jew ethnically without being an adherent of Judaism, in fact, many if not most of those who entered Israel under the law of return fall into that category.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Murray
|
|
I think the the real reason that there's only 12 million Jews is because Hitler killed most of them.
After all, when you kill 8 million people, you knock out those 8 million peoples' chances of having children too.
But is it really appropriate to judge any religion on numbers? I think not.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Murray
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Jews also pretty much run Hollywood. |
Uh oh. This thread is starting to turn nasty.
White hoods and burning crosses, anyone?
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:17.
Apolyton Time is 00:17. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
26-12-2001 04:08
A scary thought.
Not only that your Hebrew is now understandable, you also made almost no mistakes. 
|