06-01-2002 20:57									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune But Microprose was, on average, wayyyyy more consumer-friendly than Firaxis.

Absolutely! Following the release of Test of Time there was a lot of criticism of the graphics and the lack of built in editors. John Possidente of Microprose stayed right up to date on all the threads and was uniformly friendly and informative. When Microprose couldn't meet the heartfelt desires of some fans, he said so, and why.

Test of Time is easily the most underrated game of the Civ genre. I was initially a critic, but John helped turn me into an ardent fan. The opposite process has occured with Civ3.

	06-01-2002 21:50									#32
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by techumseh Absolutely! Following the release of Test of Time there was a lot of criticism of the graphics and the lack of built in editors. John Possidente of Microprose stayed right up to date on all the threads and was uniformly friendly and informative.

that was the doing of one man, not company policy...

	06-01-2002 22:01									#33
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by techumseh Test of Time is easily the most underrated game of the Civ genre. I was initially a critic, but John helped turn me into an ardent fan. The opposite process has occured with Civ3.

Tecumseh -

I own Civ:ToT and have played it alot, what did you find in it that made you such a fan, from a scenario side? I never played scenarios, just the straight up game with my own special techs and unit mods.

Venger

	06-01-2002 23:11									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by MarkG that was the doing of one man, not company policy...

I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

quote: Originally posted by Venger I own Civ:ToT and have played it alot, what did you find in it that made you such a fan, from a scenario side? I never played scenarios, just the straight up game with my own special techs and unit mods.

Up to 4 interconnected maps each with it's own terrain graphics and characteristics, animated units and terrain, vastly enhanced and enlarged events capability (for example, you can turn specific events off and on, use multiple triggers, etc.), improved AI, unbribable units, impassible terrain, invisible units, techs and units can be limited to specified civs, 81 unit slots, 100 tech slots, lots of old bugs cleaned up (you can now change improvements and production in a barbarian controlled city without the game crashing) and new things are now editable (helicopters pick up goody huts [y/n], lose X points for each betrayal. etc).

On the down side, there are no built in editors which means that scenario building takes more time. This, and the increased complexity, has meant relatively few scenarios have been produced so far. I've got several in various stages of completion, none finished except some converted from FW. (my new Russian Civil War scenario should be available for playtesting by the end of this week ) Kestrel has probably done the most with ToTs' potential. His and other scenarios are available from Cradle of Civiilzation along with some excellent scenario tips. Several excellent utilty programs have been produced which greatly enhance its' capability, including Angelo Scotto's CPSL program which is amazing and probably deserves a whole thread to itself.

	07-01-2002 00:28									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by techumseh I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

you gave credit to microprose for something that john possidente did out of his own good will and love for the game

	07-01-2002 01:34									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by MarkG you gave credit to microprose for something that john possidente did out of his own good will and love for the game

You know, there's an important moral hidden here somewhere.


So it comes down to the actions of individual people that help out on their own accord instead of the nameless corporations that they represent in name? My my my...what an interesting concept!

If that's the case why not ditch Firaxis&Infogrames inc. at once and put our money, passtime and individual interests were it matters: small companies that care, or try to, about their customers and open source projects like Freeciv, Civ Evo and Clash.

Far better returns in the short AND long term.

	07-01-2002 01:37									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Consumers vs Corperation!

This is really a point of what INFOGRAMMES and FIRSUX (firaxis) will do and disable each other from doing, and as usual, us consumers are in the mid-ground of the battle, recieving shells from both sides, and help from neither. So eventually our only hope is for a few disentry employees of Firaxis to release the source code illegally, or make their own third party add-ons. I see no real hope that Firaxis will really GIVE US what we WANT, rather, they will CHARGE us for what THEY will GIVE.

For the time being, let's start making our own add-ons, stuff the license agreement.
Mine didn't have a scrollbar, so I could only read the first page anyway.

	07-01-2002 05:54									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MarkG you gave credit to microprose for something that john possidente did out of his own good will and love for the game

Well I'd be the last person to want to give a corporation credit for something done through the goodwill of an individual. What's your basis for this observation?

	07-01-2002 10:36									#39
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I find that corperations such as Microprose and Firaxis are only as good as their employees, and be it not for a few like John Possidente and Dan Magaha, who actually listen to us apolytonians, then we would have abandoned such corp's long ago. It is a pity however, that not only does Firaxis not listen to the good ideas of my fellow Apolytonians and I, but also to many of it's employees.


FIRAXIS

	07-01-2002 13:09									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by techumseh What's your basis for this observation?

on the simple fact that while John started posting a little bit after the release of ToT, stayed active for over 9-10 months only to stop because he left microprose! by that time, mps executives had most probably forgotten what tot means

	07-01-2002 13:59									#41
	Suffering from ads?

Well, he defines customer service to me.

	21-01-2002 09:49									#42
	Suffering from ads?

*bump*

	24-01-2002 15:34									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by kittenOFchaos Libertarian I remember reading more than a few "suck up to Firaxis" threads BY you just after the release of civ3 until you found some other people here to emulate...unfortuantly some of your trash was deposited in civfanatics.

I do it too. (suck up that is) it's sometimes the only way to communicate with them in a sort of misleading way in order to gain their audience for a duration long enough to suck information out of them. Ofcoarse we always have the smoking gun approach but they usually just hide from that!

Charles.

	24-01-2002 15:44									#44
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MarkG i dont know if you have realized this(after being explained several times by firaxians participating in our forums and chats) but Firaxis, as a company, has taken a certain (official) stance towards making specific promises or any kind of predictions of what they will do with civ3 in the future. so if you expected a "from the stuff you suggested, we will do #1, #4 and #6 in the next 5 weeks" response in your thread, you're out of luck. on the general issue of improving customization abilities there HAS been a response, repeated many times. if you dont like the response that's a different issue now if you consider the above post as "cheerleading", i'm terribly sorry for having a different opinion that you...

I agree with Tech, and I believe he was stating that the response was un-acceptable but you obviously saw that. Not only was the response un-acceptable but it wasn't classified as any real response at all! Yes, we didn't like their response, and yes it bothers us, and yes we do honestly believe that if they expect us to show respect and patience they should do exactly that in return. Who will bend? I would like to think we already have Mr G.

Charles.

	26-01-2002 00:19									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

[

Firaxis failed to deliver on NONE of it. (Not counting a couple of bugs, like for air defense.) And all of a sudden, just a couple of days after release, the bi+chers and moaners hit the boards with a vengeance. And you think THIS is bad, you should see the snobs at Apolyton. Suddenly Sid is the devil, and all the good people at Firaxis are deliberate con men who set out to defraud and mug us.


I'm still laughing like hell . . .

	26-01-2002 01:22									#46
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Erhmmm Admiral PJ, did you actually play Civ2 scenarios? I mean real ones like Captain Nemo's Red Front by any chance? A scenario like RF is currently impossible in Civ3. I'm asking this because you're experience seems to be solely based on Civ3. While I think it's excellent you plan to create scenarios for Civ3 it might be a good thing to check out the classic and learn from the masters.

Well said, Cap. I would also add Kull's Ancient Age and Shay's Sacrificial Blood, as well as the classics. Right now, it is impossible to even do a simple scenario like those shipped with FW, let alone the much more complicated ones by the Civ2 Masters. If they give you all of Civ2 scenario building capabilities and much more, as they alluded to, then you will see quite a few of us back on board with Civ3. If not, it's their loss.

	26-01-2002 18:32									#47
	Suffering from ads?

I don't know why, but for some reason I find the term "scenario community" funny. I get this mental picture of an enclave of civ players living in a trailer park on the edge of town. Society doesn't understand them and some show like "60 Minutes" does a segment on them to illustrate their plight.

	26-01-2002 20:44									#48
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by BrotherLal Firaxis failed to deliver on NONE of it. (Not counting a couple of bugs, like for air defense.) And all of a sudden, just a couple of days after release, the bi+chers and moaners hit the boards with a vengeance. And you think THIS is bad, you should see the snobs at Apolyton. Suddenly Sid is the devil, and all the good people at Firaxis are deliberate con men who set out to defraud and mug us.

I'm not too sure what you're referring to when you mentioned "they failed to deliver on NONE of it" by this I assume you mean some formention feature or design, I argue not that peticular issue but that they did fail to deliver alot of things (features) that with any game standard or Civ standard for that matter should have been provided with the game apon release in October, but was not.

I also like how you could call the critics (I am a critic - because I don't care for Civ3 all that much or it's new design) bi+chers and moaners - so in other words anyone who has an opinion that rivals yours deserves a childish form of "whiner whiner" name calling, right? You're arguing about the very thing you're doing now. Wouldn't that make you a hipocrit? I doubt very much that you would enjoy someone calling you a "bi+cher" because you didn't like something and openly expressed it. Opinions are still a freedom on this board you know.

Charles.

	26-01-2002 20:48									#49
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Feephi I don't know why, but for some reason I find the term "scenario community" funny. I get this mental picture of an enclave of civ players living in a trailer park on the edge of town. Society doesn't understand them and some show like "60 Minutes" does a segment on them to illustrate their plight.

or how about this one - when they say "fans" or "fanboys" I get this mental image of a bunch of young kids dressed up to play army - armed with water guns, ducking down below the EB store window waiting for the hardcore fans (critics) to come out so they can spring at them for calling it a bad game. And then CNN does a peice on it, making reference to "Collumbine".

Charles.

	26-01-2002 21:19									#50
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by CharlesUFarley I'm not too sure what you're referring to when you mentioned "they failed to deliver on NONE of it" by this I assume you mean some formention feature or design, I argue not that peticular issue but that they did fail to deliver alot of things (features) that with any game standard or Civ standard for that matter should have been provided with the game apon release in October, but was not. I also like how you could call the critics (I am a critic - because I don't care for Civ3 all that much or it's new design) bi+chers and moaners - so in other words anyone who has an opinion that rivals yours deserves a childish form of "whiner whiner" name calling, right? You're arguing about the very thing you're doing now. Wouldn't that make you a hipocrit? I doubt very much that you would enjoy someone calling you a "bi+cher" because you didn't like something and openly expressed it. Opinions are still a freedom on this board you know. Charles.

If you had read this thread carefully, you would have realized that those are direct quotes made by none other than Libertarian.

	26-01-2002 23:16									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Willem If you had read this thread carefully, you would have realized that those are direct quotes made by none other than Libertarian.

[...yawn...]