05-01-2002 14:45									#1
	Has the scenario community given up on Civ3? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Some time ago, there was a thread from the scenario community enumerating their needs. As I recall, it was a long and prominent thread to which, of course, Firaxis never responded. I don't think I've seen anything since.

I'm wondering whether any of you are still around, whether you've actually heard anything from Firaxis, and what your current status might be.

Thanks.

	05-01-2002 15:08									#2
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No response was received, despite repeated requests for one, including some behind the scenes diplomacy by Mark G. We're still around, mostly still working with Civ2. Some of us prefer Test of Time, though it's fairly controversial. Personally, I've given up on Civ3. I did play a couple of games, but found it quite tedious. I don't think it will have much staying power. As for Firaxis, they've lost at least one customer,and probably many more.

	05-01-2002 17:10									#3
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no "official response" was given except from jeff morris and dan magaha saying in all sorts of variations and occasions(forums, chat) that the intention of firaxis to improve mod and scenario capabilties

but of course no official response was given...

	05-01-2002 17:24									#4
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Currently, I still make scns for Civ2, may be also for ToT some day. I´ve only done some graphical changes for Civ3 so far.

I like Civ3 as game, but now since the editor lacks so many things, scns on the same quality level as for Civ2 are impossible. If Firaxis gives us at least the most essential features I´m pretty sure that I´ll make a new try for a Civ3 scn...

	05-01-2002 17:38									#5
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I have been modding for many a game; I like creating much more than playing. So far I've only done one Civ3 map - and it was so tedious to make it with the tools currently available that I won't be doing another any time soon unless Firaxis clean up their act.

I am back to playing with my beta-tester scenario editor for AoW2. That game is going to be huge, let me tell you!

But as to your starting question; isn't it obvious? Take a look in the creation forums and you'll see that nothing much new has happened for weeks. (Although that may be an Apolyton effect - I uploaded my map both here and over at Civfanatics and while it's happy and kicking over there, it just disappeared from Poly. No explanation given. Oh well.)

	05-01-2002 17:57									#6
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper (Although that may be an Apolyton effect - I uploaded my map both here and over at Civfanatics and while it's happy and kicking over there, it just disappeared from Poly. No explanation given. Oh well.)

Well, the Apolyton server problems have literally kept me off the boards here for weeks, during which time I've been playing on the official MOO3 board instead.

	05-01-2002 18:04									#7
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In fairness to Apolyton, two things: (1) CivFanatics is so saturated with ebullient teeny-boppers infatuated with Civ3 that they are likely to suck up pretty much whatever you put out there, and (2) it looks like the server problems have, through no fault of Apolyton, truncated quite a few threads, including one of my own.

With respect to the modders, my only regret is my own ignorance when they were actively pleading their case. Had I the chance to do it over, I would be supportive of their cause. But I guess we live and learn.

	05-01-2002 18:16									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian In fairness to Apolyton, two things: (1) CivFanatics is so saturated with ebullient teeny-boppers infatuated with Civ3 that they are likely to suck up pretty much whatever you put out there,

I, too, find the discussions and participants here at Poly more interesting. But surely stereotyping is uncalled for? There are good people and great strats over at CF too, the general noise level is just higher.

quote: and (2) it looks like the server problems have, through no fault of Apolyton, truncated quite a few threads, including one of my own.

I realise that it's not exactly Polys fault, but it sure isn't mine either, and posting anything with readme files, zips and file attachments is enough busy work that I won't do it again - it's not as if anybody pays me for the stuff.

In some ways, it's like the distinction between Firaxis and Infogrames - the current state of Civ3 is probably more Infogrames' fault than Firaxis', but as a consumer I don't really care. I just note that the game does not deliver upon its promise and move on.

My personal targets are now set for Moo3 and AoW2. May they be great.

	05-01-2002 18:36									#9
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CivFanatics isn't so bad. After all, it lead me here!

(I haven't been there in a while either, which should give you a clear idea of which forum I favor.)

	05-01-2002 20:43									#10
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Libertarian

I remember reading more than a few "suck up to Firaxis" threads BY you just after the release of civ3 until you found some other people here to emulate...unfortuantly some of your trash was deposited in civfanatics.

	05-01-2002 20:55									#11
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Some evidence...quoting Libertarian...

" guess what amazed me, being a newbie here (but not to Civ) was that I started lurking about a month ago, trying to find out what would be in the new Civ that someone bragged about at Straight Dope.

So, I came here and followed things every day. The excitement was tremendous. The home page linked to a list of features that grew and grew by leaps and bounds practically every day. These were incredible things that everybody was really gah-gah over.

Firaxis failed to deliver on NONE of it. (Not counting a couple of bugs, like for air defense.) And all of a sudden, just a couple of days after release, the bi+chers and moaners hit the boards with a vengeance. And you think THIS is bad, you should see the snobs at Apolyton. Suddenly Sid is the devil, and all the good people at Firaxis are deliberate con men who set out to defraud and mug us.

Yes, constructive criticism is a good thing, and something that Firaxis would probably appreciate. But it doesn't take a whole lot of empathy to see that they might resent the unbelievable mob mentality that has taken hold here. People are saying they hate the game. Good lord, that's outrageous.

We were told the game was very different. We licked our chops at the thought of playing this new way. Instead, we loaded up the game, threw out everything we had discussed for the past month, and tried to play it like Civ2. Beaten badly, we came back here and whined like babies.

Yes, there are some bugs. But good heavens, how 'bout some perspective here? Let he among us who has written a bug-free non-trivial piece of software cast the first stone."

The link to the thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...ght=Libertarian

So HOW THE HELL does this guy have the cheek to say "In fairness to Apolyton, two things: (1) CivFanatics is so saturated with ebullient teeny-boppers infatuated with Civ3 that they are likely to suck up pretty much whatever you put out there"...THAT IS YOU, THAT YOU SPEAK OF...YOU say there are whiners at civfanatics THAT IS NOT EBULLIENT TEENY-BOPPERS.

You hate yourself.

P.S There is plenty MORE of this...libertarian is two faced and usually wrong.

Thread containing Libertarian logic concerning the warrior beating a tank...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...ght=Libertarian
Jeez.

Last edited by kittenOFchaos on 05-01-2002 at 21:01

	05-01-2002 21:03									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My favorite part of my first quote of Libertarian was this:

"And you think THIS is bad, you should see the snobs at Apolyton"

	05-01-2002 22:23									#13
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Well, it may be some of us are just beginning to tweak with the editor. I finally figured out how change the rules on the editor and I've started playing with the map. I haven't come up with anything that is postable, but I'm sure as time passes there will be those who will.

Meanwhile I find myself enjoying the game more and more as I play it and get to know it.

I find I like all the versions so far, each for different reasons. I've won by culture and diplomacy on Civ III and it was a hoot.

Anyhow, my two cents.

Katrina

	05-01-2002 23:55									#14
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I remember battling with Lib a bit here, but I'll grant him a reprieve. Hell, I'll grant anyone a reprieve who has finally seen the light.

Methinks he was simply blinded by his expectations and finally realized what a tedious poorly implemented cluster yank Civ3 turned out to be... that and he didn't like the utter lack of responsiveness from Firaxis about the game.

Venger

	06-01-2002 00:59									#15
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Personally,
I've decided to take a wait and see attitude on scenario making. Clearly there's not a whole lot that can be done now, and a lot of what can be done now has to be done "the hard way". For instance, making new unit graphics is possible, but just barely. We'll see what happens with the next patch: Firaxis says they're working on making the game more editable; perhaps they will.

	06-01-2002 01:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Venger I remember battling with Lib a bit here, but I'll grant him a reprieve. Hell, I'll grant anyone a reprieve who has finally seen the light. Methinks he was simply blinded by his expectations and finally realized what a tedious poorly implemented cluster yank Civ3 turned out to be... that and he didn't like the utter lack of responsiveness from Firaxis about the game. Venger

In some cases it takes some playing time to really appreciate the giant flaws in the gameplay. I noticed the game was tedious right away, but it took about three weeks to just get really sick and disgusted with it.

I'm still hoping something will happen, like a good mod...

	06-01-2002 01:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG no "official response" was given except from jeff morris and dan magaha saying in all sorts of variations and occasions(forums, chat) that the intention of firaxis to improve mod and scenario capabilties but of course no official response was given...

What a load of BS, Markos. And you know it! We prepared a detailed list of concerns/requests in our letter over at Scenario League, then it was posted at the top on this forum for several weeks with NO response. Then I caught up to Dan Magaha posting on another forum and asked why they weren't responding. He claimed he didn't know one was expected. It was then suggested that the letter be emailed directly to Firaxis in the hopes of a response, something you agreed to undertake on our behalf. Still no answer. On a couple of occasions subsequently, you indicated that you were in touch with someone and hoped a response might be sent. Still nothing.

To imply that Firaxis has unofficially responded to a letter signed by over 40 members of the scenario community is clearly misleading. There were a number of specific requests made in the letter, none of which were included in the patch OR were responded to in any way by Firaxis. Vague assurances that they want to "improve mod and scenario capabilties", made on other threads, just don't cut it. Unfortunately, I have to conclude that this is more than the bad PR that Firaxis is now famous for. I just don't think that the game is designed to include scenarios in any real way, and they won't admit it. I'm much more pessimistic than Harlan, I guess. So save your cheerleading for another cause, Markos. This one is lost.

	06-01-2002 02:15									#18
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In case anyone wants to review the letter or the history, here's the thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=32613

	06-01-2002 02:29									#19
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I find it odd that they didn't even acknowledge the letter. It was an official polite request by the scenario community. It was listed on top of the forum for all to see. MarkG 'apparently' received a confirmation from Firaxis/Infogrames. Two months have passed, plenty of time to come with a diplomatic and vague answer, but nothing....


Makes you wonder if they actually read it at all....



And Yin26 was right, Firaxis DOES have poor PR.

And seen how the problems and complaints (justified or not) (The acronyms SM were a nice gimmick though ) were handled with SMAC. It's clear that they didn't learn from past mistakes, such pity.

	06-01-2002 02:47									#20
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I think Civ3 will be great for Scenarios, at the moment you can do a lot of new stuff over Civ TOT.

People right now are still playing civ3 and getting to know how it works.. when people want to try new games and scenarios getting bored of civ3 they'll start making scenarios.

I've attempted a full scenario , and the editor makes things much better.

Its great you can have multiple buildings that do the same thing, or mixing of allowing happiness and more production , lots of great abilities like a port that allows fast ship repairing and increased production (helps ship building etc)

the trade resource system can be edited well , even allowing you to need stone resources before building walls for example.

Email me at : peter@artpac.demon.co.uk if you want to work with
me to make some cool Civ3 scenarios..

	06-01-2002 03:02									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ I think Civ3 will be great for Scenarios, at the moment you can do a lot of new stuff over Civ TOT. People right now are still playing civ3 and getting to know how it works.. when people want to try new games and scenarios getting bored of civ3 they'll start making scenarios. I've attempted a full scenario , and the editor makes things much better. Its great you can have multiple buildings that do the same thing, or mixing of allowing happiness and more production , lots of great abilities like a port that allows fast ship repairing and increased production (helps ship building etc) the trade resource system can be edited well , even allowing you to need stone resources before building walls for example. Email me at : peter@artpac.demon.co.uk if you want to work with me to make some cool Civ3 scenarios..

Erhmmm Admiral PJ, did you actually play Civ2 scenarios? I mean real ones like Captain Nemo's Red Front by any chance? A scenario like RF is currently impossible in Civ3.

I'm asking this because you're experience seems to be solely based on Civ3. While I think it's excellent you plan to create scenarios for Civ3 it might be a good thing to check out the classic and learn from the masters.

	06-01-2002 04:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh So save your cheerleading for another cause, Markos. This one is lost.

i dont know if you have realized this(after being explained several times by firaxians participating in our forums and chats) but Firaxis, as a company, has taken a certain (official) stance towards making specific promises or any kind of predictions of what they will do with civ3 in the future. so if you expected a "from the stuff you suggested, we will do #1, #4 and #6 in the next 5 weeks" response in your thread, you're out of luck.

on the general issue of improving customization abilities there HAS been a response, repeated many times. if you dont like the response that's a different issue


now if you consider the above post as "cheerleading", i'm terribly sorry for having a different opinion that you...

	06-01-2002 06:35									#23
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If one remembers that long list of scenario wants submitted by DAN MAGAHA, they will probably remember my explicit listing of requirements for a WWII scenario. The editors are too tedious and crappy, and one thought firaxis would have learnt where craptivision failed, ie scenario editing. I may oneday make that scenario, but for the time being, I challenge you EXPERTS to build a CIV2 scenario to run in CIV3, including all of the civ2 editing tools. This will probably not be Sid's idea of good bussiness, but then we can play Civ2 in the Civ3 engine.
Well get on with it.

	06-01-2002 08:17									#24
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Firaxis staff can hardly comment officially (barring some vague aspirations to improve modmaking) if any and all future development on the product has to be agreed by Infogrames. If Civ 3 has shipped enough units to make Infogrames desire an expansion pack then hopefully Firaxis and the fansites will persuade them to include goodies for the modmakers and multiplayers alongside the sort of glossy stuff like new civs, techs, units and wonders that will make it marketable.

	06-01-2002 08:57									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Firaxis staff can hardly comment officially (barring some vague aspirations to improve modmaking) if any and all future development on the product has to be agreed by Infogrames. If Civ 3 has shipped enough units to make Infogrames desire an expansion pack then hopefully Firaxis and the fansites will persuade them to include goodies for the modmakers and multiplayers alongside the sort of glossy stuff like new civs, techs, units and wonders that will make it marketable.

This depends:
If, Firaxis promised to include multiplayer and editor tools on the original CDROM with Infogrammes, then Officially, unless a contract was signed annulling such included but as of now unpublished particulars of the original game sectors, then Firaxis has right to complete and honour it's original game designs.
Thus if Infogrammes has not signed a contract for the annulment of the further devolpment and distribution of previously designed game sectors, Firaxis may distribute them at will, claiming they make part of the original game.
As far as I know, the original Beta version had the capability to multiplay at a horrendous standard, and thus it was part of the original game, and Firaxis may redevelop "patch" this game sector.

	06-01-2002 09:14									#26
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That is certainly a valid view. Reading the limited amount of material that has leaked out since release it seems to me to have been an Infogrames/Firaxis decision to meet the original deadline that mandated the removal of certain incomplete features. So what was published was what was agreed.

Quite frankly I see Firaxis as being run very solidly as a business. We're not going to get any "unauthorised" patches slipped out without prior approval from Infogrames because Firaxis want to maximise the profits from the product and maintain a good relationship with a publisher who they may be asking to advance them up to a couple of million dollars for another product in the future. Likewise Infogrames aren't going to pay Firaxis to develop any additional Civ 3 material unless their beancounters reckon it will ship enough units to be worth it. On that basis, keeping the fans happy has to be done on a mostly mercenary basis. Friendly employees can of course drop in and be helpful, just as long as they don't make any unfulfillable promises for the future....

	06-01-2002 11:06									#27
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As usual, the consumers interests are matched up against the investors interest. Has our GLOBALIST society ever heard of something other than GREED. While you are probably right Grumbold, I thought that the lack of service to consumers was part of the reason why Sid and the team left Microprose.

I'll keep hoping for free updates, even though this is wishful thinking.

(Edited to fix typo in Grumbold's name)

	06-01-2002 14:34									#28
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well, we wouldnt have Civ3 without our GLOBALIST society

	06-01-2002 15:57									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Venger I remember battling with Lib a bit here, but I'll grant him a reprieve. Hell, I'll grant anyone a reprieve who has finally seen the light. Methinks he was simply blinded by his expectations and finally realized what a tedious poorly implemented cluster yank Civ3 turned out to be... that and he didn't like the utter lack of responsiveness from Firaxis about the game. Venger

You're exactly right. What happened is that I was wrong. I'm very proud of the public record of my enlightenment. As I told Yin, I've always admired a man who, when faced with compelling evidence that runs contrary to his own notions, changes his mind.

I changed my mind.

I was merciless in my attacks against both Apolyton and the critics of Firaxis. I therefore deserve (and ask for) no mercy now.

The facts speak for themselves. What I had discerned as snobs here were in fact great thinkers. That's why I've become Prince here and am still Warlord there.

And what I had defended about Firaxis before, I now know to be nothing more than vapor.

So yes, I've seen the light. All that was required was that I open my eyes.

I recommend it to everyone.

	06-01-2002 19:54									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Grrr While you are probably right Grumbold, I thought that the lack of service to consumers was part of the reason why Sid and the team left Microprose.

But Microprose was, on average, wayyyyy more consumer-friendly than Firaxis.