05-01-2002 15:11									#1
	Spanish Grammer Get a bigger avatar today!

You may remember me mentioning that I was writing a coursework in Spanish...I've started the main bit now and I have a question regarding word order:

I know that who you're talking about > verb > what they're doing works

(ie "Los Celtas fueron un pueblo antiguo")

In some texts I seen it written verb > who you're talking about > what they're doing - is there some rule about this? I'm just wondering so I could have a bit more variety and the markers like that (so could I say "Fueron los Celtas un pueblo antiguo"?)

And happy new year everyone

	05-01-2002 16:28									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Chris Wilkinson so could I say "Fueron los Celtas un pueblo antiguo"?

If I understood you, you ask for the proper order of the verbs in the affirmative sentences in Spanish. Well, theorically speaking, spanish is a very free language in this topic. But it's normal to use the common form:
subject + verb + objects
In affirmative sentences, you should use this structure. The alterated structure is a literary form called "hipérbatón", mainly used in poetics and retorics. You can use it, for example, to start a sentence with a subordinated sentence:

"Fueron los celtas un pueblo antiguo que entró en la península ibérica..."

But, as I said, its more a stilistic form than an useful structure.

	05-01-2002 18:31									#3
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Los Celtas fueron un pueblo antiguo.

Un pueblo antiguo fueron los celtas.

(Un) Antiguo pueblo fueron los celtas.

(Un) Antiguo pueblo los celtas fueron. (very poetical).

Morphologic analysis.

- Los: Determinant, male, plural.
- Celtas: Noun, generic, plural, (bla, bla, bla).
- Fueron: Verb ("simple past" in English, 3rd person, plural, "preterite perfect simple", Indicative Mode, active voice, perfective tense, in Spanish).
- Un: article, singular.
- Pueblo: Noun, singular, colective (bla, bla, bla).
- Antiguo: Adjective (bla, bla, bla).

Sintactic analysis.

-Subject.-

Los Celtas.

Determinant concording with the noun, they are always toghether, and in this order.

-"Predicate"-

Fueron un pueblo antiguo.

"Fueron", copulative verb which makes the sentence a copulative one. (don't laugh at our copulation).
"Un pueblo antiguo" Atribute, this is a nominal group, but it also could be an adjective.

ie. Los celtas fueron antiguos/feos/guapos/malos/buenos.

This nominal group are formed by, an article "un", a noun "pueblo", and an adjective "antiguo", this last one, is an adjectival group (of only one word but a group) and has some independence.

First, always de article, and then you can use the noun and then the adjective or the adjective and then the noun.

un pueblo antiguo.
un antiguo pueblo

but not "antiguo un pueblo", (it could be but only if you are using "hiperbatons" like Yoda).

Then, the atribute and the subject can change their order in a copulative sentence.

ie.

Los celtas (fueron= verb = "axis") un pueblo antiguo.
Un pueblo antiguo (fueron) los celtas.

You can combine the different "turnings", taking the verb and the nouns like "axis", but remember, determinants and articles always first in each independent nominal group.

Two more things, the article can be omitted, generally if it starts the sentence or if you want to make your writing more poetical. The verb can be at the middle (most of times), at the beginning of the sentence or at the end.

Now I will put the independent groups between brackets, and the secondary independent gropus between double commas.

ie

(Fueron) (los celtas) (un pueblo "antiguo")
(Fueron) (los celtas) (un "antiguo" pueblo)
(Fueron) (un pueblo "antiguo") (los celtas)
(Fueron) (un "antiguo" pueblo) (los celtas)

This four forms are used as interrogative forms, but can also be used as affirmative ones in several contexts. ("fueron los celtas un pueblo antiguo los que vinieron de tan lejos ... bla, bla, bla...")

(los celtas) (fueron) (un pueblo "antiguo") The most objective expression.
(los celtas) (fueron) (un "antiguo" pueblo)
(un pueblo "antiguo") (fueron) (los celtas)
(un "antiguo" pueblo) (fueron) (los celtas)
(pueblo "antiguo") (fueron) (los celtas)
("antiguo" pueblo) (fueron) (los celtas)

These six forms are the affirmative ones, the first and the second are the most objective, from the third to the sixth are more common in narrative or epic histories.

(los celtas) (un pueblo "antiguo") (fueron)
(los celtas) (un "antiguo" pueblo) (fueron)
(un pueblo "antiguo") (los celtas) (fueron)
(un "antiguo" pueblo) (los celtas) (fueron)
(pueblo "antiguo") (los celtas) (fueron)
("antiguo" pueblo) (los celtas) (fueron)

These forms indicates some nostalgic feelings of the speaker.

As you can see we have a lot of ways to say the same but remarking the feelings.

PDT.

I hope you will forfive my bad English in exchange of my good Spanish.

	05-01-2002 20:16									#4
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(This is why I hate grammer - too many damn combinations! )

Thanks guys, looks like I shouldn't have any problems getting a variety of forms!

I did have another question but I can't remember it at the moment

	05-01-2002 20:36									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Chris Wilkinson (This is why I hate grammer - too many damn combinations! )

So true

I would suggest u to use:

Los celtas fueron(affirmative) and Fueron los celtas?(interrogative)
(same order than English)

noun+adj instead of adj+noun
(opposite)

and forget the rest (simply bearing in mind that u can find more combinations)

	06-01-2002 12:23									#6
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Primero que nada, hay que hablar de la gramatica ingles ... luego podremos hablar de la gramatica espanol

Sorry, just sorta bustin your chops but the word is grammAr, not grammEr. Its kinda ironic to me when people mispell that word, its sorta like if i were to say, "in all sentences it is necessary to use correct punctuation because if you do not you correct punctuation it will be hard for people to understand the point of what you are trying to say so therefore punctuation is something very important"

No offence meant to you by anything, its kind of late and if i seem like an a$$hole please dont mind

	06-01-2002 12:35									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Chris Wilkinson (This is why I hate grammer - too many damn combinations! )

Completely agree with you. This is why I was forced to burn my grammar book awhile ago. But if you think this is fun, wait till u start getting into the details of proper preposition usage , oh boy is that fun (if one of those little animated faces existed of the face slapping its own self, i would post that here).

Anyway, just to get back to your question, everyone here has certainly done a good job at answering it, but i just wanted to answer it hopefully in a much more simple manner.

Generally speaking from my humble experience, the most "normal" (by normal i mean popular)way to write this statement would be "Los celtas fueron un pueblo antiguo." The sentence, "Fueron los celtas un pueblo antiguo" (with the subject and verb reversed), would most likely be reserved for a question, as in "?Fueron los celtas un pueblo antiguo? "

I know the word order in spanish is something that is very fluid as has already been said, but i am just trying to give you an idea of what word order is most common, although the long list of sentences that Kramsib gave is also gramatically correct.

Also, i dont think one capitalizes nationalities in spanish. Thus, as far as i know it would be "Los celtas ...," not "Los Celtas...," just the same as it would be los americanos, not los Americanos.

By the way if i am wrong about any of this please someone dont fail to correct me.

Saludos

	06-01-2002 14:59									#8
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I hate it so much I've never bothered to learn the name properly

I don't know why I capitalized Celtas - looks like a typo

	06-01-2002 16:43									#9
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I know some purists are gonna burn me to the stake for this:

- Capitalizing nationalities: Whos is right but I would never consider it a mistake, perhaps because i capitalize them very often (do not pay too much attention to this rule )

- Accents: It's such a chore for us too that we "forget" them very often, try to not forget to use them when it changes of meaning (práctico/practicó/practico)

- Ñ: This is not an N with an accent, it's a different letter, so we never forget this one. Use alt+164 and alt+165 in your keyboard to write them

	06-01-2002 22:40									#10
	Capital letters. Get a bigger avatar today!

In Spanish only proper names start with a capital letter, and obviously, the first letter of any word which starts a sentence after a stop.

Needless to say that some titles are often written in capitals in order to remark their importance.

But the question is, what is a proper name?

Basicly, they are the same in Spanish or in English but there are some differences.

The same.

Names of places, cities, people, buildings, titles, ....

2 basic differences.

1) Days of the week:

- In English, the days of the week are in capitals, but not in Spanish.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, ...

Lunes, martes, miércoles, ...

2) Nacionalities (+ "gentilicios")

Spanish, American, French, English, ((("Conquense", "Santanderino"...)))

Español, americano, francés, inglés, conquense, santanderino, ...

But the English influence in Spanish and the fact that using capitals is useful to find data when you skim a text are changing the tendence, but the rule is the rule.

Personally I find very useful to use capitals to remark an important word, and, when I am writing quickly I do not care about if I am writing correctly, I only want express the idea clearly.

So, finally it depends on the freedom you have when you write. If you are writing a report for your boss you have less freedom than writing a note to you.

	06-01-2002 23:01									#11
	The order in a sentence. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A sentence in Spanish is formed by two big parts.

Subject. (Generally a nominal group where a noun is the main word).

Predicate. (Where the verb is located and accompanied with the rest of the information, the complements).

ie. Rosa tiene un perro.

Subject : Rosa (noun).
Predicate: tiene (verb) un perro (direct complement).

This is the beginning, and we can complicate it as far as you wish, but this is the main order.

Subject + Predicate (= Verb + Complements).

Now, look at the same basic sentence but more complicated.

Lucía y Rosa tienen un perro para Ana en el armario.

Subject: Lucía y rosa, this is a multiple subject formed by two main nouns coordinated and in the same level of importance.

Predicate: tienen (verb)(note the concordance between the subject and the "conjugation" of the verb), un perro (direct complement), para Ana (indirect complement), en el armario (circumstantial complement of place).

Here is the normal order in a simple sentence.

Subject + Predicate (verb, direct complement, indirect complement, circumstantial complements - of place, of mode, ... -)

If you have more questions I will try to answer but I think I will have to use my old notebooks of Language to remember everything.

PDT.

Another difference between English and Spanish about capital letters.

Subjects (or even advances in Civilization)

Language, Mathematics, Economics, Electronics, ...

Lenguaje, matemáticas, economía, electrónica, ...

	06-01-2002 23:08									#12
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Kramsib, for my sanity, STOP IT!
I think Chris understood you the first time

	06-01-2002 23:12									#14
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We need 'a head exploding' smilie!

	06-01-2002 23:22									#15
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What about this:




or this:

	07-01-2002 01:52									#16
	Re: The order in a sentence. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

WAKU , those heads are very funny, how did u make them????

quote: Originally posted by Kramsib ... Predicate: tienen (verb)(note the concordance between the subject and .... .... my old notebooks of Language to remember everything.

In english we would the correct word we would use is agreement, not concordance.
Also, notebooks of language = language notebooks.

Also, i saw on another posting in a thread i dont feel like going back to, somebody wrote, "I have to actualize my webpage." In case that person is still here, the word to use would be "I have to update my webpage."

You all have corrected me about my spanish before, so this is just as little bit of venganza. Anyways, I only bother to correct people's language if it impairs their ability to get their meaning across, due to the fact that that is the most important thing. Espero que ustedes hagan lo mismo conmigo

	07-01-2002 02:28									#17
	Re: Re: The order in a sentence. Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by whosurdaddy WAKU , those heads are very funny, how did u make them????

I didn't, estaban Aquí

pero no se lo digas a Mark

	07-01-2002 08:07									#18
	Re: Re: The order in a sentence. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by whosurdaddy ... "I have to actualize my webpage." In case that person is still here, the word to use would be "I have to update my webpage."

Unless they have learned management speak! The corporate world is full of phrases containing horribly misused grammar and word choice, only because they are coined by people who think others are impressed by cryptic word use. Very irritating. "Actualize" is actually used this way, I've heard/read it many times! These are almost always cases of making the simple complex.

Other examples:
"Bipartisan." Was "unified" such a bad word?
"Pre-moistened." Was there a problem with the word "moist"?
"You should contact myself or ..." That this caught on vexes me greatly.

	07-01-2002 08:10									#19
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By the way, very informative thread! Keep the linguistic info flowing!

	07-01-2002 13:28									#20
	Re: Re: The order in a sentence. Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Also, i saw on another posting in a thread i dont feel like going back to, somebody wrote, "I have to actualize my webpage." In case that person is still here, the word to use would be "I have to update my webpage."

	07-01-2002 14:23									#21
	Re: Re: Re: The order in a sentence. Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq These are almost always cases of making the simple complex.

hehe! not in a spanglish context.

update = actualizar

	08-01-2002 09:21									#22
	Re: Re: Re: Re: The order in a sentence. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Waku hehe! not in a spanglish context. update = actualizar

Yes, i realized that, except over hear i am used to hearing spanglish going the other way, as in english words incorporated into spanish by the spanish speaking population here ... makes learning correct spanish un dolor de culo. Por eso quiero preguntarles algo ....

¿La palabra “chequear” es una palabra real en el español de España, o simplemente es un anglicismo? La gente aquí de Mexico, Puerto Rico, y hasta la Argentina usa esta palabra (y por eso yo también), pero ¿sería ententida esta palabra en España?

	08-01-2002 16:06									#23
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The order in a sentence. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

La palabra "chequear" la verdad es que creo que por aqui no se usa.

	08-01-2002 16:10									#24
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¡Dios mio! ¿Gramatica espanola a Apolyton? (¿Es correcto?)

	08-01-2002 16:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt ¡Dios mio! ¿Gramatica espanola a Apolyton? (¿Es correcto?)

Sería: "¡Dios mío! ¿Gramática española en Apolyton?"

quote: Originally posted by whosurdaddy ¿La palabra “chequear” es una palabra real en el español de España, o simplemente es un anglicismo? La gente aquí de Mexico, Puerto Rico, y hasta la Argentina usa esta palabra (y por eso yo también), pero ¿sería ententida esta palabra en España?

Más que "chequear", se utiliza el substantivo "chequeo".
"Voy al médico a hacerme un chequeo." Es un barbarismo, no está aceptado (creo) por la Academia de la Lengua, pero se utiliza. Y si en España utilizas "chequear" te entenderán, aunque no se use normalmente

	08-01-2002 17:05									#26
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Er, gracias. "Barbarismo". Hehehe. ¡Me encanto el uso de palabras envelicidos como esta en espanol y frances!

(Lo siento para mi uso barbaro de la lengua)

And I'm too lazy to put ALL the accents in.

	08-01-2002 18:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt And I'm too lazy to put ALL the accents in.

Dont worry nobody usually put them

	08-01-2002 22:16									#28
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quote: Originally posted by kIndal Dont worry nobody usually put them

¡¡vaya ejemplo!!

	08-01-2002 23:32									#29
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The order in a sentence. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by whosurdaddy ¿La palabra “chequear” es una palabra real en el español de España, o simplemente es un anglicismo? La gente aquí de Mexico, Puerto Rico, y hasta la Argentina usa esta palabra (y por eso yo también), pero ¿sería ententida esta palabra en España?

AFAIK chequear no está reconocida por la RAE (academia de la lengua), pero su uso está también muy difundido en España, aunque quizás no tanto como en Latinoamérica.

En cualquier caso se entiende perfectamente.