07-01-2002 04:01									#31
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I think Faded Glory is drunk. (again)

	07-01-2002 04:04									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I think Faded Glory is drunk. (again)

wha?

	07-01-2002 04:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory ...as for the army captain, wasnt that accident? I cannot say the same for the actions of your Pig-**** ing/Goat ramming friends..

Accident? Sure, maybe by your standards... And they weren't my friends, just Vietnamese women and children. But the way you describe them makes me think. Do you normally describe people who aren't your race like this? Arabs, Vietnamese... If so, please let me know so I can skip reading your posts...

quote: tsk.....tsk.....to the victor goes the spoils. And look who won? No mercy, weeks before there capture they talked of jihad and genocide against babies and women in buildings...now the irony is they are crying like women and babies. These people are too dangerous to lock up...besides, who wants to pay for them? So its ok to blow 4,700 people up in buildings? In case you havent been paying attention to the new lately, the is from a few fringe, disenchanted fanatics of a largely peaceful religon. Oh ya, or are you wanna of those people who thinks "US policy" is too blame. Just because we have supported Israel...Bombed Iraq?? Pa'h..... We(america) once again, will have the last word. Its only a matter of time before fix some of the issues I mentioned above.

Keep up this way of thinking... You(america) will be surprised. If you don't know by now that this isn't about Israel or Iraq then, well, sorry...

	07-01-2002 04:11									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L The US signed the convention, and the POWs are in US custody. It doesn't matter if the party of the POWs signed it or not.

Mark is quite right - the U.S. is a signatory and its Geneva Convention obligations extends to combatant who are not signatories.

	07-01-2002 04:31									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij But the way you describe them makes me think. Do you normally describe people who aren't your race like this? Arabs, Vietnamese... If so, please let me know so I can skip reading your posts...

Oh Huejj my boy

Your not trying to paint me into the deep-dark corner of ignorance are you? The good ole' Racist trick eh?

I called the Vietnamese Guards Pig ****ers..... And they clearly are.....if you have ever heard the stories of american POW's before? And little nammie's never signed your worthless Geneva convention. And war was never officially declared on Vietnam. Now, doesnt that sound familiar?

quote: Keep up this way of thinking... You(america) will be surprised. If you don't know by now that this isn't about Israel or Iraq then, well, sorry...

Its not! Watch the bin ladin video my friend...mr. Sheyk says it loud and clear...

To get people interested in Islam.....

All that other stuff? Thats a mask of course..

	07-01-2002 04:44									#36
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory The good ole' Racist trick eh? I called the Vietnamese Guards Pig ****ers..... And they clearly are.....

I don't know anything about a Racist trick, sorry. I just call 'm as I see 'm. And you weren't talking about guards, you were talking about Vietnamese in general...

quote: if you have ever heard the stories of american POW's before? And little nammie's never signed your worthless Geneva convention. And war was never officially declared on Vietnam. Now, doesnt that sound familiar?

I heard the stories, read the books, saw the movies... (btw, 'little nammies', that's a new one to me, thanks...) And if you think my Geneva convention is worthless then this whole argument serves no purpose, right? All you do is convincing me more and more that I'm right...

quote: All that other stuff? Thats a mask of course..

Right...

	07-01-2002 04:45									#37
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quote: What's so confusing about what I said?

Only that it contradicts Chris' points...

quote: It's not like we would be able to bring these defendants before an International tribunal as some hear would apparently prefer. The shear number of potential defendants would overwhelm the realistic ability of international courts to handle them. As an example, only 31 individuals have been tried by the Yugoslav tribunal in 8 years, at a cost of $400 million. Imagine the costs of opperating with jurisdiction in this area. There are other faults with international courts but that one is the most glaring.

Thats silly. What El Awrence siad about MP&THG Course you can't try an army. In an international court, nor a military tribunal. They were following orders. You'd have to try US servicemen for all the war crimes against Afghans.

Treat the Al-Quieda leaders as criminals, and find them guilty by fair, open trial. Its not too difficult. You were sure enough to go blow a country apart, be sure enough to find them guilty.

	07-01-2002 04:58									#38
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Well no point in argueing with somebody who believes terrorist are justified in killing civilians. Yet its not ok when we seek to bring them to justice?


Not to mention you seem only interested in calling me a bigot, rather than face the facts. An army captian killed a few Vietnamese civilians on accident..We treated there prisoners with respect, Vietnamese did not return the favor..You seem to only wanna say "Its ok they did it, because look what you did"


so I can see the ignorance and anti-american behind your mask

	07-01-2002 05:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Thats silly. What El Awrence siad about MP&THG

That's the second time you've confused me on as many forums.

quote: Course you can't try an army. In an international court, nor a military tribunal.

And no where in my post did I suggest "trying and army?" If you have any substantive objections to my post please list them.

quote: Treat the Al-Quieda leaders as criminals, and find them guilty by fair, open trial. Its not too difficult. You were sure enough to go blow a country apart, be sure enough to find them guilty.

I'm not exactly sure how you meant this part to connect to my arguement but I'll opperate under the assumption that you disagree with the use of military tribunals as a means to try war criminals. To that I can only say that the traditional venue for enforcing the law of war has been military tribunals (example Nuremberg) and are not in and of themselves inconsistent with international law. In fact a recent Executive Order issued by President Bush, setting out the jurisdiction of military commissions, is limited to foreign nationals, and may permit open trials, the participation of civilian judges and defense counsel, and some form of appellate review.

	07-01-2002 05:08									#40
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Well no point in argueing with somebody who believes terrorist are justified in killing civilians. Yet its not ok when we seek to bring them to justice? Not to mention you seem only interested in calling me a bigot, rather than face the facts. An army captian killed a few Vietnamese civilians on accident..We treated there prisoners with respect, Vietnamese did not return the favor..You seem to only wanna say "Its ok they did it, because look what you did" so I can see the ignorance and anti-american behind your mask

You really have no clue about what happened over there, do you? An accident indeed... If so then 911 was an accident too.

And to refrase you, ít's ok we do it, because look what they did'?

I was (a small) part of the anti-American demonstrations over here during the Vietnam war and it's people like you who bring out those long buried anti-American feelings out again. The ignorance is all yours btw...

Anyways, I'm off, hopefully this thread will be way down page three tomorrow.

	07-01-2002 05:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's the second time you've confused me on as many forums.

What other forum? CF?
MP&THG - Monty Python and the holy grail.

quote: And no where in my post did I suggest "trying and army?" If you have any substantive objections to my post please list them.

Not objections... How many constitute the "sheer number of defendants"?

quote: I'm not exactly sure how you meant this part to connect to my arguement

It wasn't. I realised I hadn't stated my opinion before in this thread.

quote: but I'll opperate under the assumption that you disagree with the use of military tribunals as a means to try war criminals. To that I can only say that the traditional venue for enforcing the law of war has been military tribunals (example Nuremberg) and are not in and of themselves inconsistent with international law. In fact a recent Executive Order issued by President Bush, setting out the jurisdiction of military commissions, is limited to foreign nationals, and may permit open trials, the participation of civilian judges and defense counsel, and some form of appellate review.

If the military tribunals are fair and open, I have no problem with them.

	07-01-2002 05:12									#42
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This Thread reeks of Al-Queda supporters..

	07-01-2002 05:37									#44
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I knew the voting would even up once the rest of the world got online

	07-01-2002 05:38									#45
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about the matter of Pow's, do what the international law says.

A question: if it is a closed trial all the transcripts of the procedings will be public. Isn't that right?

Closed trial means only that TV will not be inside correct?

	07-01-2002 05:55									#46
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Do peple STILL believe it's about the evil ameica oppressing country x and helping country y?

Well, I'll clear it up for you.

1) Palestine was originally a BRITISH Mandate. Go complain to them. We can't change the facts that are there now, and carving up the Israeli territory extensively would only result in the destruction of sirael and the peple living there.


2) Do some research, people. Lots of these fringe schools of islam talk about GLOBAL dominatin. Not north american, not mideastern, global. Sheesh. you'd think the Europeans, of all people,w ould know the price of appeasement.

	07-01-2002 07:04									#47
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quote: Well no point in argueing with somebody who believes terrorist are justified in killing civilians. Yet its not ok when we seek to bring them to justice?

Justice. The same justice all Americans are granted. Fair open trial "innocent until proven guilty" trial. In the end, America stands to lose a lot in the face of history if you do it closed and without releasing transcripts or anything as everyone will believe they are phoney. And all that for what? To appease a bloodlusted mob of people demanding executions. I don't know, but it reminds me to the Massachussets of the 1600s.

	07-01-2002 07:16									#48
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory An army captian killed a few Vietnamese civilians on accident..We treated there prisoners with respect, Vietnamese did not return the favor..

Ya right. And who was the Senator who killed his Viet prisoners during a special ops back in the 60s? And lord knows the Americans never tortured their prisoners, or shot them, or kicked them out of helicopters. And any that did get killed, well, it was just an accident, so sorry, our mistake. Oops, we did it again. Sorry.

	07-01-2002 07:22									#49
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence And all that for what? To appease a bloodlusted mob of people demanding executions. I don't know, but it reminds me to the Massachussets of the 1600s.

I fully agree - this does remind me a lot of the Salem witchhunts - or McCarthyism.

The guy who masterminded the first WTC attack was tried in open court - that seemed to work okay. What's the difference here?

	07-01-2002 07:39									#50
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While I agree, in principle, with those advocating trial in open court, I don't think it will make much difference for the terrorist suspects.

No American jury is going to give these suspects a fair trial. The jury will look at the suspect and see an Arab, who doesn't speak English, who believes in a different religion and who dresses differently. All of that will equal guilty in their minds. The suspect will have to prove they are not a terrorist and that is an impossible task. (you can't prove a negative).

	07-01-2002 07:45									#51
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quote: Ie; 'you' are no better than 'them'. Convictions without and beforehand a fair trial is just what 'they' did when they flew a couple of planes into centers of economic and military power.

Well, they are getting an attorney, a "jury," and to know what they did. And it won't be pig farmers in Afghanistan who are going to be tried: only the high-command, light Nuremburg.

	07-01-2002 07:48									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai While I agree, in principle, with those advocating trial in open court, I don't think it will make much difference for the terrorist suspects. No American jury is going to give these suspects a fair trial. The jury will look at the suspect and see an Arab, who doesn't speak English, who believes in a different religion and who dresses differently. All of that will equal guilty in their minds. The suspect will have to prove they are not a terrorist and that is an impossible task. (you can't prove a negative).

Another very good point - which suggests the International Court of Justice in the Hague would be a better option for the trials. It would have a lot more international credibility.

	07-01-2002 08:35									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Another very good point - which suggests the International Court of Justice in the Hague would be a better option for the trials. It would have a lot more international credibility.

1) The ICJ doesn't have jurisdiction in this matter. If thier absolutely must be an international tribunal it would have to be established by the UN Security Council.

2) You've yet to deal with the objection I raised earlier about the realistic ability of an international court to deal with the shear number of possible defendents.

3) How do you propose the US deal with the problem of sharing intelligence intercepts with non-American personel in an international court in the midst of an ongoing conflict?

4) Why doesn't a Nation-State's right to self-defense carry with it the expectation that it will be able to try the war crimes that come out of attacks upon its territory and citizens?

	07-01-2002 08:40									#54
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Tingkai is full of sh*t and it's not at all "a good point"--it's false wisdom. They would take their charges seriously as they have in the past in terrorism trials. Y'all act as if we haven't done this before. We've even had trials regarding the first World Trade Center terrorism act.

The only thing the Geneva conventions state regarding this is that you can't have different punishment for acts committed by detainees than the general populace. So the US is in the clear on this. If we execute Timothy McVeigh for terrorism, we can execute OBL for terrorism.

Chris: it doesn't matter whether the enemy is a signator or not. You are bound by the conventions if you are a signator.

	07-01-2002 08:51									#55
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No he does make a good point - its very hard to get a jury for any highly publicised crime.

	07-01-2002 08:56									#56
	Assuming that this was going to a civilian court... Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse No he does make a good point - its very hard to get a jury for any highly publicised crime.

We got one for in the McVeigh case, the first WTC attack, etc. after all so why couldn't we get one in this case?

	07-01-2002 08:59									#57
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AH: he accused Americans of being racist, anti-muslim, and anti-Arab. He has no idea what he's talking about, especially with regard to how it would play out in a jury.

	07-01-2002 09:05									#58
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quote: So its ok to blow 4,700 people up in buildings

Revised down to ~2800 as of last estimate.

	07-01-2002 09:22									#59
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Captured war crimminals get the worst of all legal worlds. The captor can apply to full rigor of any of the applicalbe legal regimes: war crime; international crimes such as piracy; POW, civilian crime; UCMJ, without being obligated to choose among them. You can imprison then as a pow idefinately without charge until a repatriation agrrement is is established or the conflict is entirely over. You can question them about anything militarily relevant without aloowing them an attorney. You can try them before any court which has jurisdiction, civilian, military, international tribubunal, using whichever one gives the prosecution the most advatage. All the legal chooses belong to the captor. A POW has no greater defenses or immunities to crimminal prosecution than any other prisoner, and has several disavatages to boot, such being imprisoned indefinately, having all communications monitored, not being entitled to consular visit while a POW, and not attorney to support while being questioned (giving his name, rank, and serial number until blue in the face)
You can do to them anything you can do to any other crimmianl suspect/defendant, and a great deal more. Thats the law whether you like it or not.

	07-01-2002 09:32									#60
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It also seems you can get your local allies to torture them for information and then pretend you have clean hands