07-01-2002 09:41									#61
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Yep, you probably could if you wanted to.

	07-01-2002 09:50									#62
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Revised down to ~2800 as of last estimate.

umm no.....1300 bodies have been recovered and marked dead.

2800 are still listed as missing

	07-01-2002 09:54									#63
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory umm no.....1300 bodies have been recovered and marked dead. 2800 are still listed as missing

Nope. Just watched it on the news last night. ~700 dead, ~1950 missing with death certificates. More missing with no death certificates (less than a 1000), and these are the ones that keep the body count dropping.

	07-01-2002 10:00									#64
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory umm no.....1300 bodies have been recovered and marked dead. 2800 are still listed as missing

Nope. Just watched it on the news last night. ~700 dead, ~1950 missing with death certificates. More missing with no death certificates (less than a 1000), and these are the ones that keep the body count dropping.

	07-01-2002 10:05									#65
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what difference would it make if it were 10 or 10,000? Binny and Mullah got what they deserved.

	07-01-2002 13:30									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Tingkai is full of sh*t and it's not at all "a good point"--it's false wisdom. They would take their charges seriously as they have in the past in terrorism trials. Y'all act as if we haven't done this before. We've even had trials regarding the first World Trade Center terrorism act. The only thing the Geneva conventions state regarding this is that you can't have different punishment for acts committed by detainees than the general populace. So the US is in the clear on this. If we execute Timothy McVeigh for terrorism, we can execute OBL for terrorism.

Dan: You're blind to the truth. The fact that people were put on trial for Oklahoma and WTC bombing does not automatically mean that these people received a fair trial, or for that matter an unfair trial.

In McVeigh's case, IIRC the FBI "forgot" to hand over 20-odd boxes of evidence to the defence team. That was a very serious breach of procedure. McVeigh wanted to die so this "mistake" became irrelevent, but it raises the question of how fair his trial was.

If the American people are willing to kill innocent Afghani civilians in their pursuit of Bin Laden, then why would they care if an Afghani was wrongly convicted of being a terrorist? As many Americans have written on these boards, the Afghanis are guilty and deserve to die. Why bother with a trial when you "know" they are guilty.

	07-01-2002 20:45									#67
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Where is Roland when you need him?

Tingkai: Afghani is the currency. Afghans are the people. Just thought I'd point that out.

	07-01-2002 20:52									#68
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I'll bet when it is all said and done that what we are talking about here is more theory then actuality. I don't think anyone will get the death penalty unless it can be shown that they were "directly" linked to the planning or execution of the 9/11 events and those people will either disappear or die before getting arrested.

Believe me, the US isn't gonna start executing al-Qaada members due to their membership or they would literally have to execute 1000's of people and they just aren't gonna do it.

As for closed trials, it is a necessity in these types of cases. In the past when the US has detained terrorists and has to take them into open US courts they often times were unable to get convictions simply because they did not want to compromise their intelligence sources.

Do you realize that Ramzey Yusseff was in custody in the United States on terrorism charges and was deported because of the breach of security it would have caused to prove him guilty in open court. In case you forgot who he is, he the guy who came back 2 years later and bombed the World Trade Center.

	07-01-2002 21:26									#69
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Dino:

Lefty is overall correct on this, although he may make it sound more dramatic than it is.

The humanitarian rules of war apply to all combatants; in Afghanistan even Al Quaeda members who fight openly should qualify for that. The limitations on POWs' freedom are not a punishment, and end with the end of conflict/repatriation.

POWs can be tried and punished with a couple of limitations. One is that trials may not circumvent POW protections; or that you can't try a POW for "murder" for killing a soldier in combat. The minimum procedural guarantees for trials are quite difficult to pin down under international law; even dubya's suggested canguroo courts may pass that test. The bigger problem with them is domestic and constitutional. About disclosing evidence, I think there are rules covering this for "ordinary" organised crime.

There is only regional international law against the death penalty, so per se its application is no violation of international law.

	07-01-2002 21:56									#70
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"In McVeigh's case, IIRC the FBI "forgot" to hand over 20-odd boxes of evidence to the defence team. That was a very serious breach of procedure. McVeigh wanted to die so this "mistake" became irrelevent, but it raises the question of how fair his trial was."

It was a semi-serious breach of procedure, but I don't think it raises a question of how fair the trial was. Believe it or not, 20 boxes isn't that many documents in a trial this large.

But it does raise the question of whether all of the Defense Department's documents are going to be subject to discovery. This is the kind of absurdity that the US would like to avoid.

"If the American people are willing to kill innocent Afghani civilians in their pursuit of Bin Laden, then why would they care if an Afghani was wrongly convicted of being a terrorist? As many Americans have written on these boards, the Afghanis are guilty and deserve to die. Why bother with a trial when you "know" they are guilty."

Who are these "many Americans... on these boards?" Please cite me what they have said.

	07-01-2002 22:05									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Mark is quite right - the U.S. is a signatory and its Geneva Convention obligations extends to combatant who are not signatories.

Sorry, but the boy and yourself are 100% INCORRECT.

quote: Chris: it doesn't matter whether the enemy is a signator or not. You are bound by the conventions if you are a signator.

I also cut in Dan, because all of you are forgetting something.

THEY AERN'T POWs

They are criminals, unless you care to show me a formal declaration of war on Afghanistan, which is impossible, because the war is against criminal organizations, not nations, and POW status and the Convention ONLY applies in that instance. Then you must prove they represent the leagal Afghan goverenment, in other words, good luck. "War" on terror is a slogan, not a leagal postion.

And as a point, the convention only applies to signies, whether you believe it or not.
This is why most Japanese prison camp comanders were not prosecuted after WWII, because Japan never signed. The same is true about Germany, many camp commanders were not turned over to the Soviets, because the Soviets also refused to sign, and this was confirmed by Geneva after WWII, so it's no joy to your argument.

Nice try guys, but El Queda and the Taliban are akin to the Mafia, not to nations, so the convention doesn't apply, and the USA is free to deal with them as it sees fit.

In other words, try again.

	07-01-2002 22:12									#72
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Chris: no. You're missing the point. We're treating them like POWs. Whether or not they are POWs is beside the point.

The good news is that doesn't stop us from doing what we see fit with them, including trying them for what they've done, and executing them, if warranted.

edit: interestingly, we might want to ship these guys to some place like Germany. They have some laws barring association. We don't.

Last edited by DanS on 07-01-2002 at 22:20

	08-01-2002 02:19									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Most Western countries have abolished the death penalty as barbaric. There are Western country citizens amongst the prisoners taken in Afghanistan - 2 Australians and 3 Brits have been reported. Neither country has the death penalty.

Depends on what they did to who. I'm sure we'll have enough prisoners bye and bye to give you guys a few of your own.

quote: What about the Geneva Convention? Many of those captured surrendered in battle.

The Geneva convention does not offer immunity from punishment for war crimes or violations of the laws and customs of war, nor does it apply to such persons as terrorists, saboteurs, or spies.

quote: What about other international law? The International Court of Justice doesn't execute war criminals. Could the US find itself before the ICJ if it executes prisoners?

What about it? If they're our prisoners, from our war, then too ****ing bad. If anyone else was so concerned about what happens to them, then they should have come to the party to get their own damned prisoners.

quote: Why is the US planning to use closed military tribunals to try prisoners? Is that allowed under international law? How do you get a fair trial in a closed court?

Let's see if this ever moves beyond a rhetorical position, first.

	08-01-2002 04:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What about it? If they're our prisoners, from our war, then too ****ing bad.

I'm afraid it doesn't work like that old chap - the US has commitments under international law. It also has an international reputation which it likes to keep unsullied. This is a UN sanctioned action now so all UN members have a stake in what goes on. The vote in the poll says it all.

quote: If anyone else was so concerned about what happens to them, then they should have come to the party to get their own damned prisoners.

Correct if I'm wrong but I thought the Northern Alliance was taking most of the prisoners and then handing them over to the US. They could just as easily hand them over to another authority such as an international peacekeeping force.

	08-01-2002 05:03									#75
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"They could just as easily hand them over to another authority such as an international peacekeeping force."

Sure they could. But why on Earth would they do that?

	08-01-2002 05:05									#76
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I'm confused. What are we trying them for? And who exactly are we trying?

I think Deity Dude had a point. Are we talking about Al Qaeda members here? How can anyone implicate them in the WTC/Pentagon attacks? The guys who flew the planes are all dead. Anyone else involved is just an accessory. It's not likely that there were very many other people who even really knew the details of what was happening, other than that a large attack was planned. So if they are criminals, what is their crime?

	08-01-2002 05:15									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Frodo It's not likely that there were very many other people who even really knew the details of what was happening, other than that a large attack was planned. So if they are criminals, what is their crime?

My point exactly From what I can see, for the vast majority their only crime is feudal ignorance. I saw one Pakistani recruit who said he came to fight in Afghanistan because it was a country of infidels. He didn't know most Afghans are muslims. How do you put a fool like that on trial?

The whole thing is a sad farce.

	08-01-2002 06:32									#78
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Hey......an asteroid the size of mount everest is passing between earth and the moon tonight....cool

Last edited by faded glory on 08-01-2002 at 06:50

	08-01-2002 06:47									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Frodo I'm confused. What are we trying them for? And who exactly are we trying?

So far, we're just hanging on to them, to find out who they are, what they know, etc. There's already a big weeding out process - most Taleban fighters are allowed to go free, to go back to their villages. Al Qaeda fighters are foreigners, who are not their in an official capacity on behalf of allied governments - they are there as mercenaries, which puts them in about the worst position they can be in. Mercenaries have no protections under international law. Most of them (those that don't have any major role in al Qaeda) are better off in our custody than they are being prisoners of the Northern Alliance.

quote: I think Deity Dude had a point. Are we talking about Al Qaeda members here? How can anyone implicate them in the WTC/Pentagon attacks? The guys who flew the planes are all dead. Anyone else involved is just an accessory. It's not likely that there were very many other people who even really knew the details of what was happening, other than that a large attack was planned. So if they are criminals, what is their crime?

That's to be determined. Meanwhile, they get to be fed, housed, given medical attention, and otherwise treated as prisoners of war. Better than many of the available alternatives.

	08-01-2002 06:59									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Al Qaeda fighters are foreigners, who are not their in an official capacity on behalf of allied governments - they are there as mercenaries, which puts them in about the worst position they can be in. Mercenaries have no protections under international law.

Er how can you say they are mercenaries? They aren't doing it for the pay

	08-01-2002 07:09									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I'm afraid it doesn't work like that old chap - the US has commitments under international law. It also has an international reputation which it likes to keep unsullied. This is a UN sanctioned action now so all UN members have a stake in what goes on. The vote in the poll says it all.

The vote in the poll says there's a lot of squeamish whiners who are now so concerned about the precious "rights" of a bunch of ****ing mercenaries. How much concern did anyone in particular have for the "rights" of the people oppressed by the regime maintained by these mercenaries? It's funny, it really is. Arab and Pakistani al Qaeda members can support one of the most brutal regimes in the world, which has caused enormous suffering and oppression, and nobody says "boo." But now, all this whining over the hypotheticals of what the US might do to few al Qaeda or Taleban leader.

Perhaps we ought to turn them over to Afghan "justice" - anybody remember what happened to Mohammad Najibullah?

quote: Correct if I'm wrong but I thought the Northern Alliance was taking most of the prisoners and then handing them over to the US. They could just as easily hand them over to another authority such as an international peacekeeping force.

If they had a reason to, yes. But we're the ones paying, training, and supporting them, so they bring their prisoners to us. If you guys wanted to adopt some, you should have helped the NA out yourselves.

	08-01-2002 07:16									#82
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The vote in the poll says there's a lot of squeamish whiners who are now so concerned about the precious "rights" of a bunch of ****ing mercenaries.

quote: How much concern did anyone in particular have for the "rights" of the people oppressed by the regime maintained by these mercenaries?

You mean the US's close allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?

quote: Perhaps we ought to turn them over to Afghan "justice" - anybody remember what happened to Mohammad Najibullah?

Why not? You're letting them do the torturing for you

quote: If they had a reason to, yes. But we're the ones paying, training, and supporting them, so they bring their prisoners to us. If you guys wanted to adopt some, you should have helped the NA out yourselves.

We aren't that dumb.

	08-01-2002 07:38									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

I agree, the transparent show of concern is laughable.

quote: You mean the US's close allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?

Actually, I was refering to places like Canada, Oz, NZ, Europe, etc. At least the Saudi's and Pakistanis are consistent in their lack of concern.

quote: Why not? You're letting them do the torturing for you

Naaah, you don't understand the fine art of interrogation. We're giving them food, medical care, and saving them from those Uzbeks and Tajiks who are making sure their knives are dull enough. Of course, we make sure that they're close enough by that our prisoners never forget whose prisoners they could become.

quote: We aren't that dumb.

Then don't whine about it when we handle things our way.

	08-01-2002 07:45									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Er how can you say they are mercenaries? They aren't doing it for the pay

Doesn't matter if they're doing it for fun or pay, or just because they're bored, or to get away from their nagging wives, or mothers-in-law.

Their legal status is still that of mercenaries. Their motivations don't matter, only the fact that they are there as combatants by their own choice as individuals with no official status as a member of the armed services of a combatant country.

	08-01-2002 07:46									#85
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If there is a serious point here, which I'm beginning to doubt, it is that the legal process needs to be just and to be seen to be so by the international community, incuding to the muslim world. I would like it to show what idiots these people really are and the evil that results from their stupidity. This is as important to defeating OBL and his ilk as blowing stuff up. Capiche

That's whay I've always felt that prosecutors and police would do a much better job of demolishing OBL that military means.

	08-01-2002 07:58									#86
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The serious point is that the US will do what it wants with these *******s, which in most cases will mean turning them loose once they've been shown not to be anyone significant, or not to have any particular intelligence value.

Nothing the US or west does is going to satisfy Islamic fundamentalists as to "fairness." The rest of the world really doesn't give a ****.

With all this talk about "fair trials" - then certainly, we ought to immediately give the entire public world a complete view of all US and foreign sources and means of intelligence used to gather evidence. After all, preserving a few terrorists "right" to cross-examination while unknown dozens or hundreds of their accomplices are at large and under investigation is far more important than maintaining what intelligence capabilities we do have.

Yes, let's expose everything to everyone, to "prove" to a few simpering do-nothings that the guilty really are guilty.

Singaporan authorities just arested a fairly large al Qaeda cell in Singapore, and they attributed the identification of those terrorists to the results of interrogations and intelligence gathering in Afghanistan. Let's by all means make sure every terrorists still out there knows our exact capabilities and take of intel data, so they can change their operating and communications procedures.

Prosecutors and police do a great job when the criminal has the courtesy to enter and stay in their jurisdiction while he's doing his thing. They're not real useful outside their jurisdictions. I'd still like to see a cop go knocking on a cave entrance in Tora Bora, and say "Excuse me, but we have a warrant to search for weapons and evidence of terrorist activities?"

	08-01-2002 08:15									#87
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The intel argument has always been a load of bull. The US government has always been able to protect its sources in court.

	08-01-2002 08:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Chris: no. You're missing the point. We're treating them like POWs. Whether or not they are POWs is beside the point.

I think it is the point, Dan.
have they been given a leagal status as of yet?
I haven't heard of any.

quote: The good news is that doesn't stop us from doing what we see fit with them, including trying them for what they've done, and executing them, if warranted.

I think that Horsie and our euro friends opinions are the last thing we give a damn about at this point.
They remind me of the intense stupidity of people like the ACLU, who argue that everyone should be investigated if anyone is, and that law enforcement resources are endless, and could do this, investigate all, when the exact opposite is the case.

quote: edit: interestingly, we might want to ship these guys to some place like Germany. They have some laws barring association. We don't.

They lack the backbone to do what must be done, they are to tied to middle east fossil fuels and other economic interests to act objectivly.

	08-01-2002 08:27									#89
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Oh well - I suppose the US will continue to flail around vengefully like a bull in a China shop - just the way OBL wanted

And if OBl gets executed, he gets the martyr's death that will complete his legend

	08-01-2002 08:35									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Oh well - I suppose the US will continue to flail around vengefully like a bull in a China shop - just the way OBL wanted

Happy to oblige him on that point.

quote: And if OBl gets executed, he gets the martyr's death that will complete his legend

I'm glad you brought this up, because it's an interesting point.
People don't want to make him a martyr, yet, can you name other martyrs today?
The Mahdi was a Martyr a century ago, does anyone remember him, or even care, today?
The talk of Martyrs is over-rated, as far as I can see, no Martyr outside of Jesus has made any real impact on history.