07-01-2002 06:50									#1
	Risk 2: Better than Civ3 Enter the AD-FREE zone

It's true. I just played Risk 2 over the weekend and found something actually fun about it. Of course, it's a far more simple game, but it entertains, which is the point.

Beyond that, they added two simply outstanding twists to the board game:

1) A simultaneous moves version and
2) A tournament mode.

I can't tell you how much more interesting the simultaneous moves option is! You *really* have to consider a great number of factors when deciding where next to attack. Pull all your troops out of the wrong place at the wrong time just as the AI is gunning for you there ... and you're in big trouble.

The other nice thing is the tournament mode, which puts you in a tournament against increasingly more difficult opponents in a series of 'classic' and 'simultaneous' games. And the AI is GOOD! Of course, it's kind of like chess in that the AI has so little to think about, but the result is you can and I did get wiped off the map if you don't concentrate your forces carefully and take calculated risks. Yes, I lost in my first round of the tournament because I tried to maintain a two-front war with a split empire. Awesome.

Of course, the length of a typical Risk game allows for some of this more than would be feasible for Civ3, but simultaneous moves ABSOLUTELY could have been in Civ3 along with the stacked combat that Risk always had.

So if you want to see a game that actually learned to do something fun and interesting within its narrow confines (and, I might add, is polished out of the box), toss Civ3 in the trash and pick up Risk 2.

You'll thank me.

	07-01-2002 07:05									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks. I'll ply when I'll find this...

Meanwhile, I'm stil playing Dominate, which is similar to Risk, on www.dominategame.com

I stop playing Civ III for some reasons maybe I'll explain someday (I'm tired, have stuff to do and it'd be long. Last time I wrote my text to put it on the forum, it deleted because of some forum error or something. 3 hours in garbage)

	07-01-2002 08:15									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

LOL! Now if Yin said EU2, then ok, but Risk2? Now he's just searching. Risk2 was fun for all of... oh, 3 minutes. The AI is utter garbage (something pointed out by players of the game), and it gets repetitive fast if you don't have a human to play against you.

It does have pretty colors, but that seems to be it .

	07-01-2002 10:56									#4
	Got spare money?

The AI on tournament mode beats Civ3. Sorry, but it's true. Civ3 can have all the excuses it wants for being worse than 'lowly' Risk 2. But there you have it.

	07-01-2002 13:31									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

You mean it cheats worse, yes?

I played the tournament in <em>Risk 2</em> before, and the computer players do cheat like dogs on speed.

The more luck there is the better the computer players play. I wonder if that's yet another case of them playing with loaded dice.

When I played simultaneous turns with land auctions, they had zero chance.

	07-01-2002 16:04									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Cheat? What do you mean? How can you cheat at Risk?

	07-01-2002 18:36									#7
	Got spare money?

I can both agree and disagree here. Risk 2 is a fun game, if you only have less than 30 minutes to play in it is much better than Civ3 (In 30 minutes you can't make many moves in Civ3), but if you have more time then nothing beats Civ3.

	07-01-2002 23:56									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The original Risk is better than Risk 2.

	08-01-2002 01:01									#9
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Cheat? What do you mean? How can you cheat at Risk?

Loaded Dice, like UR explained.

	08-01-2002 08:35									#10
	Support Apolyton

Loaded dice? If you can provide proof of that, I'll quickly rack up another uninstall. One wonders, however, if people aren't just *****ing. You know, 'random' sometimes yields odd results.

	08-01-2002 17:52									#11
	Suffering from ads?

Yes, randomness <em>sometimes</em> produces odd results. Since there's no way I can access the internal mechanisms of the game, I can't make it roll a million times and do statistical analysis on it. It's just a gut feeling, that's all.

One more thing. In the tournament the computer players gang up on you. They don't play to win, they just play to make you lose. It's not a whole lot of fun that way.

	08-01-2002 21:44									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger One more thing. In the tournament the computer players gang up on you. They don't play to win, they just play to make you lose. It's not a whole lot of fun that way.

Ah, that explains why I hated tournament so much back then as I had the game installed

	09-01-2002 05:18									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hmmm, I guess tournament might do that the farther you go in the series of games, but I saw no evidence of that in my previous tournament. The comps attacked each other quite well.

	09-01-2002 05:46									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Loaded dice? If you can provide proof of that

If you can provide proof of cheating in Civ3....

It is something you just know... After all, what is there to justify higher difficulty levels, if it is all randomness? As you go up the ladder, the dice get more and more loaded.

	09-01-2002 05:53									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I never said Civ3 cheats. I said it sucks.

As for the 'It's just something you feel' argument: Sorry. I'm a bit more demanding than that. Sure, I've seen the comp have some amazing runs of luck against me at times, but I've had the same happen with me against the comp, too.

I think the difficulty level determines how much the other civs gang up on you, not how the dice are rolled. This makes far more sense to me.

If all you guys have are 'feelings,' save your breath.

	10-01-2002 06:18									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Then you can't say ANY game cheats against the player. Because you really can never have proof. Yet, it is obvious in plenty of games, and very easy to do in games involving dice.

	10-01-2002 06:20									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sorry, Imran: See 'save your breath' above.

	10-01-2002 07:38									#18
	Got spare money?

*yawn*

You apologist

	10-01-2002 08:02									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

In Civ3, we know what bonuses the comp gets. It's standard procedure to tell us. I just don't buy that a game run SOLELY on dice would load the results without telling people. And I don't take 'feeling' as a good indicator, either.

As I said, I sometimes have amazing runs of good and bad luck. That's random for you. Now, I can readily buy the fact that on harder levels the AI gangs up on you.

Still, one good link to the developer saying dice are loaded on higher levels and *bam* I'll delete the game.

	10-01-2002 15:01									#20
	RISK 2 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Risk 2 is a BORE next to CIV3.

I got sick of watching the armies play the same animation over and over again, so I turned it off.

Then it got boring watching numbers point at each other and blow up. And annoying as well.

It is fun playing RISK2 Multiplayer - of course - but Civilization 3 is much better at Single Player.

In that way Risk 2 reminds me of Wolfenstein, with bad SP but fun MP. However usually 'strangers' annoy me so I'd rather play against AI if my friends aren't online.

	10-01-2002 15:49									#21
	Suffering from ads?

But for what it is, Risk 2 delivers far more and with far more competence than does Civ3.

	10-01-2002 18:15									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by yin26 But for what it is, Risk 2 delivers far more and with far more competence than does Civ3.

That's an interesting qualification. That's like saying that for what it is, My 84' chevrolet car delivers far more and with far more competence than the United States 43' (or something) battleship.
If I say, "for what it is", I can make all sort of absurd statements like that.

	10-01-2002 18:28									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is the point: Risk2 delivers what it promises. Civ3 fails. Which would you rather play: A modest game done very well or a puff of smoke akin to pulling your teeth out.

This is the point, indeed, that any number of even simple games are far more fun and well done than Civ3.

	10-01-2002 21:51									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You surely have some strange sense of fun, Yin I don't know, the computer players in <em>Risk 2</em> are utterly incompetent in doing anything systemetic. They can't play, they can't bid. I would say it's far easier to do a good AI for <em>Risk</em> than for <em>Civ</em>, but the team failed.

So they chose to have computer players gang up on the human player in the tournament. Result? Utterly boring game and extremely frustrating tournament.

If you found that fun, keep away from me

	10-01-2002 22:03									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Loaded dice? If you can provide proof of that, I'll quickly rack up another uninstall. One wonders, however, if people aren't just *****ing. You know, 'random' sometimes yields odd results.

Oh come on, Yin! Now you're disappointing me! Loaded dices have been present in every TBS game in history! This has been so in Civ 1, in MoO 1, etc, etc! Don't tell me you never figured that out! Or tell me that you aren't a gamer since you're a little boy...

About the Tournament mode, Starcraft also gangs every AI against you in melee mode. If you want them to fight among each other, you have to play the Free For All mode. One can have fun both ways.

	11-01-2002 05:03									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Nope. Show me the loaded dice that aren't explained by the developer according to difficulty level. Like I said, this 'gut feeling' garbage is just garbage. A number of people, in fact, felt that Civ3 was using loaded results ... until somebody ran some extensive tests and found out: Nope.

So I repeat, show me where Risk is using loaded dice. Until then, I'd rather not see your puked up gut-feelings. Thank you.

	12-01-2002 04:47									#27
	Got spare money?

so should I buy risk 2 or not?

	12-01-2002 05:14									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, it's an awfully 'simple' game, of course, though simultaneous moves and tournament mode are great twists. One of the great things is you can finish a game within 30 minutes or so. It's got good polish, though animations and such are repetitive, that's true.

Heck, if you find it cheap, give it a try! It's great for quick, not particularly taxing gaming.

	12-01-2002 05:55									#29
	Tired of ads?

The problem here yin, is that you went into Civ3 with unrealistic, impossible to meet, expectations. There was no way that game was ever going to live up to your expectations no matter how good or bad it was.

Civ3 + impossible expectations = A letdown
Risk2 + no expectations = game surpasses expectations

	12-01-2002 06:24									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, on my expectation scale, Civ3 got a 'C' -- not a failure, per se, but not something one would really want to invest a lot of time in. Seems like a lot of people share that feeling as the game stands now. But it's not only about expectations: It's about things Civ3 simply failed deliver in game mechanics, things that simply make the game tedious.

Risk2, for all its simplicity, certainly isn't tedious. It might not stretch your brain cells too much, but it moves along nicely. This is one of the major problems Civ3 needed to address.

Last edited by yin26 on 18-01-2002 at 09:54