17-02-2002 20:00									#91
	The Powerful get their due... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The brave Atlantean people wish to be heard. That is all. Snubbed for centuries, ignored by most, I felt that I had to make our nation important again.

So a few noblemen and their personal armies set out on a voyage to show the world that we are a nation to be reckoned with...

As we came upon the richest city in the world, we found it unguarded, and entered it as heroes.

We are not barbarians... We could have attacked the Ukrainians also, but our terms of peace are honor bound.

I only wished to further the Atlantean cause during my tenure, and I feel that I did.

Now, those who here the name of my people will shudder in fear (or quake with laughter)...

P.S.: If Winzity doesn't want to keep playing, I will be more than happy to continue with this Civ. If he does decide to come back, he SHOULD p.m. me, before he gets a nasty shock...

	18-02-2002 02:26									#92
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes....it is amazing how some of the greatest nations on earth do so little to protect their citizens. Meanwhile Canton has the best defensive army in the world, with the latest technology as well!

	18-02-2002 19:50									#93
	The Capo... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The Capo opened his newspaper and sipped his scotch whiskey (although there are no scots... which is strange). He glanced the headlines and grinned.

Bored with reading the details of global news he approached his window and looked out upon his property, he was pleased, the world had treated him well indeed.

"The Capo is pleased..." he said to himself, he chuckled at the thought of this war, at the thought of an upstart attacking the major power and sighed...

The Capo was also spamming.

	19-02-2002 08:41									#94
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The download provided fixes the rules to allow manhattan project and apollo program at the normal techs. It also includes the sound files for the special units, jet fighter, jet bomber, dreadnought, and modern infantry. Just unzip this in the scenario directory and overright the old rules......

Attachment: fixes.zip
This has been downloaded 18 time(s).

	19-02-2002 16:00									#95
	Increase Your PM Length

Hydey has downloaded and unzipped as instructed so I am ready for this weekend.

	22-02-2002 18:31									#96
	Remove this text

I will be here saturday, golf fell thru

	24-02-2002 04:16									#97
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

sorry guys. can't make it tonight. sorry for the late notice

	24-02-2002 04:16									#98
	Remove this text

sorry guys. can't make it tonight. sorry for the late notice

	24-02-2002 04:22									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

my mistake. i guess i can make it.

	24-02-2002 04:43									#100
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think Makeo is trying to say that he is on drugs again.

	24-02-2002 05:04									#101
	Deplorable actions by The Atlanteans! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Captain Deiticus must re-iterate the Aussie DEITIAN government's concern over the action of the renegade Atlantean noblemen. But we appeal to the mighty Carts to be able to discriminate between the action of a few that does not clearly represent the desires of the Atlantean peoples as a whole.

	24-02-2002 06:19									#102
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Clearly deities words are false. Why else would he remain allies with the cantonese and south americans. Both allied with the north americans. While the deity/north american alliance is not formalised it exists all the same.

How can deity deplore the actions of the north americans and keep his allies. Obvioulsy deities words have no value and are simply a soundbite for the gullible press.

	24-02-2002 09:11									#103
	Put an end to popups!

What an explosive session we had today, the african people awoken from there slumber by the North american unprovoked sneak attack have all but wiped out the south americans, the poor south americans needed help from there allies but seem to have been left high and dry.

	24-02-2002 09:19									#104
	A nation in flames, an unjust cause! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The african nation, reeling from the raids launched by the Atlantians sought revenge in any form possible instead of realizing their attitude of superiority and unwillingness to make peace with Atlantis was at the root of the Atlantian attacks. The misguided Scippio launched an all out assault against American nation spreading false rumors of American involvement. The african assualt knew no mercy. There was no quarter as city after city fell to this tyrannt who saw no reason to justify any of his agressive actions as to why he broke the peace treaty with the Americans who only had a defensive pact with the atlantians and were at a state of complete peace with the african nation. No demands were made, no timeline was given, only the harsh reality of the carnage bought down upon the land unjustly by the africans. Even after there were no terms for peace, just a continueing campaign of death, untill every possible city was left burning. Responce from the allies of africa ranged from apathy to all out support for the genocidal attacks. The rest of the world stands in horror as the sheer unwillingness to compromise, and the relentless attacks continued. If such madness is allowed to prevail who knows the horrible path the world must follow...

	24-02-2002 10:05									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Bummer

	24-02-2002 10:14									#106
	Support Apolyton

After much thought, I am pleased to make this offer to the innocent people of south america, Your previous rular failed to protect and your new ruler, the powerful africans may be tied up with delicate negotiations, so the Ukranian armed forses offer to take up peace keeping in the americas with troops stationed in south american cities preventing further useless bloodshed.

	24-02-2002 10:39									#107
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wouldn't mind seeing some level headed Euro troops in South America....but peacekeepers implies theres some sort of peace to keep doesn't it?

	24-02-2002 12:34									#108
	Get a bigger avatar today!

did another diplo game jsut turn nasty or ami missing the diplo in all thjis !!!!

	24-02-2002 13:43									#109
	Pity about the golf! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Bummer

LOL.. golf sounds like a better alternative now

	24-02-2002 13:59									#110
	No alliance. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Makeo Clearly deities words are false. Why else would he remain allies with the cantonese and south americans. Both allied with the north americans. While the deity/north american alliance is not formalised it exists all the same. How can deity deplore the actions of the north americans and keep his allies. Obvioulsy deities words have no value and are simply a soundbite for the gullible press.

We have no alliance nor any contact with the Atlanteans. We heard about a plan to attack the Carts but were not involved in it.

We deplore the action.

However, what is far more deplorable is the emotinal over-reaction by Scipio to the attack. If someone attacks you it is generally fair to say that you can attack back; but to attack a neighbour you are at peace with just because you can't get at the Atlanteans is intolerable.

I repeat, any civ that leaves their nation undefended is asking for trouble, even in diplo areas. For a 7th ranked civ to knock out the top civs undefended capital and another city with a phalanx is understandeable in pure terms but still deplorable. For the top civ to wildly kick out in such an irresponsible manner defies belief and for the Aztecs to support such actions is a clear statement that the world is faced with an axis of evil.

We now have the Carts the size of two huge civs allied to the Aztecs, also huge and allied to a very solid Ukranian civ.

And what are they taking on?

The now 6th ranked Atlanteans and decimated Americans, both of whom may not exist after the next session...

That leaves just the DEITIANS and Cantonese

In any realistic diplo world such a situation would be intolerable and alliances would break to restore world order.

Captain Deiticus appeals to the nations of the world to realise their fate, all of them, before it is too late!

	24-02-2002 14:17									#111
	OOC Increase Your PM Length

OK troops, I gotta air a few things OOC.

Firstly, I believe fodder to be an honest player and decent guy. None of us should make any suggestions that any of us are doing anything 'irregular'.

However, I think fodder played the game wrongly, based on a belief that he had been made a fool of by the Atlantean attack, so I don't think we have realistic strategic planning unfolding here. It's more of a grudge thing now and that makes for a bad game. There are not enough posts or rationale to back up actions taken from just about all of us, particularly the Carts.

Also, I think it was bad form that Berzerker captures back 4 or 5 cities just before fodder's turn, but fodder drops connection before Berz realises and hits enter so the AI took over the Carts.
So, to be fair we go back to the autosave and on Berz turn in the battle re-plays with the Carts he only gets 1 or two cities back!

If you missed this point fodder you should keep an eye on the king chat and the dialog. I said at the time it was not right but got no reply. Berz eventually said don't worry about it as you relentlessly kept on attacking. You should have ceded those cities that Berz had taken, at least. That was two or three cities you had to rush buy for further attacking and the whole reason we restarted was because the AI took your civ's turn!

Sorry, but it sux and I had to say something. The game is distorted somewhat.

A few of you keep saying that it was never a diplo game but in every way it has been except for the lack of posting.

Just because Dang is posturing and folks leave their cities undefended is still part of it. The only thing that has gone off the rails diplo-wise is the Carts attack on the Americans.

You can't see a diplo game as a mathematical thing about balance of power and just attack the most convenient civ without ANY dialog or diplomacy at all! Ridiculous.

But I really want to hear fodder's story ASAP!!!

	24-02-2002 14:33									#112
	I'm still thinking about all this! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

OK, I thought we agreed on a three city limit in war? That was my assumption.

I vote that this is the rule and was the rule and that we go back to the carts save just before his invasion so that he can still attack as before with complete surprise but only take three cities.

This rule at least puts a limit on the lack of diplomacy involved and gives the aggressed nation a chance to fight in a realistic way. Also, it will be more fun and keep all 7 players involved. Berz has been too good a sport.

	24-02-2002 21:45									#113
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Rasputin did another diplo game jsut turn nasty or ami missing the diplo in all thjis !!!!

quote: Originally posted by Deity A few of you keep saying that it was never a diplo game but in every way it has been except for the lack of posting.

Well I can't speak on the whole game, but from the very beginning when I played in the game I deffinately caught a very non-diplo vibe. People were just putting their head down and building. People got together with alliances, which was good but not unheard of in a non-diplogame. Beyond that I don't think there was much communication and certainly no roleplaying or storytelling.

I know with Berzerker and I starting out the only real thing we talked about was which techs to go for. It seemed like a tribe game rather than a diplogame. Just striving to be biggest and best.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I am not at all surprized by what has happened. The Atlantean's attack was with out roleplayed justification. The Cart's response was without justification as well. But of course its not the first time someone has taken over all of South America in a single turn in a diplogame.

	24-02-2002 23:10									#114
	Roleplayed Justification? Support Apolyton

Actually, the attack did have justification, at least in my eyes at the time.

The Ukrainian player was advancing through the Artics,(and this later will be a pain!) and I was nervous that a road up there could be used to attack me. The country I was playing was poor and backwards, and desired noteriety (as a result of being ignored by everybody) and a tech or two.

During the game I had prepared a large statement, which was released as soon as the attack was launched. The contents were the same as the above "powerful get their due" post.

I tried diplomacy with everybody immediately after the attacks,(Somebody even told me to shut up!) because I was poised to strike at other targets as well... If I would have been attacking at random, I would have hit Hydey north of the Atlantean country, because he too had no treaty with me at the beginning of the game. Or even after his treaty, he had an undefended city I could have taken as well as the others.

You are correct about the "tribe" feeling that this game imparts, but as for my small pitiful role in this game, I feel that I didn't screw it up too much!

	25-02-2002 00:40									#115
	Suffering from ads?

Personally I'd feel better if fodder came and rubbed it in our faces instead of just being silent. You can never tell if some people involved give a damn about this game one way or another...

	25-02-2002 02:13									#116
	Re: I'm still thinking about all this! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by deity OK, I thought we agreed on a three city limit in war? That was my assumption.

The 3 city limit was suggested but not agreed to.

That is my recolection anyway.

	25-02-2002 02:20									#117
	Re: Roleplayed Justification? Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Flatlander Fox , I would have hit Hydey north of the Atlantean country, because he too had no treaty with me at the beginning of the game. Or even after his treaty, he had an undefended city I could have taken as well as the others.

Yes I did have one undefended city , It was a new city and in a diplo game with peace treaty signed with all players I took the risk of waiting to build a vet musket to defend that city, all other citys had a vet musket in them so I don't think your phlanx would have taken too many more. The reason we had no treaty at the begining of the game is that we had had no contact, once you contacted me, a treaty was signed.
The peace treaty between Atlantean and Ukranian peoples has remained firm through all this caos.

	25-02-2002 07:42									#118
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

"So a few noblemen and their personal armies set out on a voyage to show the world that we are a nation to be reckoned with"

NAW.....NOBODY WOULD BELIEVE THAT

	25-02-2002 07:44									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

"Yes it is amazing how some of the greatest nations on earth do so little to protect their citizens"

NAW....TOO REPETITIVE

	25-02-2002 08:38									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Alright Deity....I will respond to you with my "roleplayed justification" later in the week. But 1st.....why dont we review some of the previous threads....in particular look at Flatlanders last thread where he describes his " roleplayed justification"....:

1) " the Ukranian player was advancing through the Artics(sic) and this will later be a pain"

Yeah, that sounds really horrible but how does that relate to attacking Carthage.

2)"the country I was playing was poor and backwards and desired noteriety(sic)"

Well...Atlanteans certainly achieved that...gee..maybe Carthage could become notorious too

3)"he had an undefended city I could have taken"

Well...I have been in as many "diplogames "as any of you and I never knew that having an undefended city was a cassus belli. Lets now do the math....on the turn I was attacked I had garrisoned 9 of 11 coastal cities with vet musketeers or better...almost 80%(BTW...the only cities I hadnt garrisoned were on the Med. Sea...Atlanteans had never been in the Med previous to that...guess who they got their map from to see where my cities were). When I attacked Berz.....he had 18 cities and 9 units(of which at least 1 or 2 were ships) so less than 50% of his cities were garrisoned. Using your allies twisted sense of logic...who had the greater cause to be attacked.