 |
| |
|
| |
|
|
dancemasseuse
|
|
Houston
Jul 2002
time: 23:17
|
|
Gavin:
your comment that 500 gold was cheaper than the settler. actually circumstances can show that is not always true. I took a city and disbanded it to steal the city/settler. cost to me at this time, zero. so if you slave it no money is lost from my treasury. If I pay you 500 gold then yes I have money lost from my treasury. Basically the settler was a freebee from conquest. no loss. Even though it is worth more which is your argument, losing 500 from my treasury is not in my best interests. since you did not want it I have left with it.
You also need to remember with some of the comments you have made to other players that they have circumstances like yours too. They changed all their production to military and moved large armies towards your old predecessor. Those armies eat up a lot of production each turn. So just because your the new player and want peace, you need to keep this in mind too. Why should they just take all these units back home, sit them down and eat at their production each turn and then as the game progresses they will become obsolete and maybe disband them to aid the production. Plus why leave you with one of the largest city size empires just because the other guy did it? Remember I am not arguing with you, just trying to show you there are two sides to your argument.
We would have all rather been building mills, factories and other buildings and PW. So while we do understand your want to bring peace, you need to look at their side too. I have enough units to take them back and stake out my area with pickets so I do not mind. Others though have a substantial investment. And you are asking them to walk away with nothing, but a production drain and obsolete units soon. Again I am only trying to show you an opposing view. any argument you may have I will agree with your points too, but these points are valid and no other argument will invalidate them anymore than they invalidate yours. It is a case of both points are valid, but we have to recognize that each needs to do what is in their best interest even when we disagree.
Turn 148 to thebirdman
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Maquiladora
|
|
Assyrians - (maquiladora at blueyonder dott uk) please post it like this so i dont get spam.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Maquiladora
|
|
Yeah it should Paul sorry. Just trying to avoid the spam bots.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gavin the Great
|
|
dancemasseuse:
"your comment that 500 gold was cheaper than the settler. actually circumstances can show that is not always true. I took a city and disbanded it to steal the city/settler. cost to me at this time, zero. so if you slave it no money is lost from my treasury. If I pay you 500 gold then yes I have money lost from my treasury. Basically the settler was a freebee from conquest. no loss. Even though it is worth more which is your argument, losing 500 from my treasury is not in my best interests. since you did not want it I have left with it."
the settler you get from disbanding a city is not really free. he didnt pop up from nowhere, you had to sacrifice your city to get him. it was an exchange, settler for city. and if you wanna count a cities value in gold it is a lot more than 500. take into account the worth of buildings it can hold and the ability to generate gold, production and food for your empire. so there acctually is a cost for the settler - the city.
if you gave me 500 gold it would logically disappear from your treasury and go to mine. it would be a short term benefit for me though coz a relatively small amount like 500 is used up pretty fast.
on the other hand giving away an important unit like the settler would be less beneficial for you and more beneficial for me than in the previous case. you would have one less unit to expand your empire, which is an important thing. if u wanted to build another city you would have to spent extra production for another settler. how can this be no loss for you? my benefit from it is that a slave works for me just like a normal worker but for less food and no pay. this way i can safe more gold over a long time.
what we get is that you lost some of your production in form of a settler and i have a long term benefit from the slave in form of tile working for less pay and food.
"You also need to remember with some of the comments you have made to other players that they have circumstances like yours too. They changed all their production to military and moved large armies towards your old predecessor. Those armies eat up a lot of production each turn. So just because your the new player and want peace, you need to keep this in mind too. Why should they just take all these units back home, sit them down and eat at their production each turn and then as the game progresses they will become obsolete and maybe disband them to aid the production."
ok, i am very sorry for the production you have lost during war but you need to remember that i dont take without giving. i asked all players to state their demands and terms for the peace treaty to repay the war damage and so far i have fulfilled the demands of most nations(except peace loving canada who naively attacks me without wanting to discuss the terms for peace).
"Plus why leave you with one of the largest city size empires just because the other guy did it?"
the thing with the conquered cities has been sorted with the romans ages ago and it annoys me that everybody else still has a problem with it. as well as in all other cases i havent demanded the right to keep the cities and give nothing for it just coz my predecessor took them over. i acctually tried to "buy them" from the romans, giving something in exchange. the romans wanted the gallia cities back and wanted me to rename all conquered cities - thats what it did! so whats the problem?
"Remember I am not arguing with you, just trying to show you there are two sides to your argument.
We would have all rather been building mills, factories and other buildings and PW. So while we do understand your want to bring peace, you need to look at their side too. I have enough units to take them back and stake out my area with pickets so I do not mind. Others though have a substantial investment. And you are asking them to walk away with nothing, but a production drain and obsolete units soon. Again I am only trying to show you an opposing view. any argument you may have I will agree with your points too, but these points are valid and no other argument will invalidate them anymore than they invalidate yours. It is a case of both points are valid, but we have to recognize that each needs to do what is in their best interest even when we disagree. "
this is not a thing about two opposing points of view, it is your ignorance towards my efforts to bring peace back. it is acctually pretty disappointing to see that you havent recognized that i offered everyone valuable things to repay the damage. for example i disbanded a lot of samurai for the assyrians. believe me it is no pleasure to trash a whole bunch of good units like this but a deal is a deal. what you say instead is that im the one who claims the rights for such a big piece of land without giving anything for it. this way no diplomacy is possible my friend. i took something so i give something. but you somhow dont see that.
gumpold:
"The Canadians do not recognize any Welsh claim to the former Roman cities along our border."
oh god, someone kill me now..... THE WELSH AND THE ROMANS HAVE SORTED THIS ISSUE AND THERE WILL BE PIECE BETWEEN BOTH NATIONS!!! i dont understand how you can judge about a region that never belonged to you! you aided the romans in a quest to reconquer this land but there is no need for it anymore coz now it officialy and rightfully belongs to the welsh which the romans agree on!
"Since the Welsh have forced the Roman military out of the area, anarchy has gripped the region."
my government is theocracy.
"To help protect these stateless people the Canadian military has moved in to depose the (Welsh backed) Warlord who controled one of the cities and help restore order and the rule of law."
you just killed the population of a whole city, destroyed units that were on "stand down" and destroyed an important trade route and caravan. the people of Melasurej thank you for your help and protection, oh peace loving ruler. 
once again my friend: the last king of wales started the war. i wanna end it! how am i a threat for the others when i try to achieve peace, offer gifts to repay war damamge, set my units on "stand down", disband special war units and cease building more military units?!?!?!
PLEASE STATE YOUR TERMS FOR PEACE!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gavin the Great
|
|
The Welsh city of Aeraseac fell prey to the stubborn canadians!
establishing peace would be beneficial for the welsh as well as the canadians. war will harm us both. i give you my word that i dont intend to harm you or anyone else. keep attacking me though and you gonna regret it. that is your last chance, state your terms for peace or say goodbye to canada.
Native Americans, Assyrians, Romans, English and Dutch! Witness that i try with all my effort to achieve peace with Canada! However if the canadians continue to attack Wales i will defend my country!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gavin the Great
|
|
149 to maq
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Maquiladora
|
|
quote:
Native Americans, Assyrians, Romans, English and Dutch! Witness that i try with all my effort to achieve peace with Canada! However if the canadians continue to attack Wales i will defend my country! |
Besides, any nation that shows the same unncessary aggression as the previous Welsh leader will end up the same way.
Turn 149 to Don.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
dancemasseuse
|
|
Houston
Jul 2002
time: 23:17
|
|
I will try to say this as diplomatic as I can, but I do feel insulted and belittled. Gavin, almost ever response you have given each person who has disagreed with you went beyond "negotiations" Explaining a difference is one thing, but the belittling comments such as below are not appreciated.
"this is not a thing about two opposing points of view, it is your ignorance towards my efforts to bring peace back."
My "ignorance" is not in question here. I said I understand your view and was trying to show you another that some may have, so you call me ignorant. Since I mentioned there were 2 arguments then I did in fact have the knowledge, that means I was not ingorant.
"it is acctually pretty disappointing to see that you havent recognized that i offered everyone valuable things to repay the damage."
I will let my mother and father talk to me about being disappointed in me, but you need to know me better before you insult me again.
"for example i disbanded a lot of samurai for the assyrians. believe me it is no pleasure to trash a whole bunch of good units like this but a deal is a deal. what you say instead is that im the one who claims the rights for such a big piece of land without giving anything for it. this way no diplomacy is possible my friend. i took something so i give something. but you somhow dont see that."
Again saying I did not see what you just pointed out again, when I clearly stated that others may look at it differently, was my only point.
Basically remember I settled with you or at least "I" think we did. So stop your beef with me here. I really did only try and see if you might understand others reluctance to settle. So again just because the points you made again are valid, does not mean the other points are any less valid. Please do not try and give me another lecture on how your point is right and any one who disagrees with you is "ignorant", "dissapointing", or "oh god, kill me now...".
I agreed with you in the first place and settled. I just also understand others reluctance to do so for the reasons stated.
Ken
|
|
| |
|
|
|
dancemasseuse
|
|
Houston
Jul 2002
time: 23:17
|
|
turn 149 to thebirdman
Ken
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gavin the Great
|
|
dancemasseuse, i dont get why you started to get beyond the game and becoming personal.
first of all, you are trying to tell me that im forcing my point of view on others and "asking them to walk away with nothing". and that is not true! just look at my previous posts and youll see that i had my own demands but also asked others for theirs! that is what i meant with ignorant! you act like i only cared bout my own interests and i dont give a damn bout the others saying that my point of view is "the one true"! you dont have to explain me that "others have their point too"! i knew that myself all the time! you think you have to teach a way to talk with others? you say that i start to insult people as soon as they state another opinion than mine, which is total bullshit! havent you thought that this might be offending towards me? then dont be surprised that i offend you back saying you are ignorant.
second of all, the thing with gumpold and my "god kill me now" comment etc. well, say that im not trying to settle peace with him! but look what he does, he calls me despotic, im a threat and he thinks he has to "bring order" to my cities. i try to convince him as good as i can that i dont wanna fight! but he doesnt seem to even read my post! thats just starting to piss me off!
and i have never called somebody else on here ignorant or anything like that. i agreed with all players(except gumpold) and everything was fine until you started to play the great guru and preaching me with stuff that was unnecessarry in the first place! ask the others if i offended them and look at the previous post and tell me when was i ever being rude to others and not caring bout their interests? you dont know me too man and still you talk bullsh!t about me like you knew me! my insult was just a response to yours!
im outta this sh!t game! its acctually the worst game ive ever played! a stubborn player who responds with military force to peace offers and another one who tries to make a onesided, greedy and selfish person of me. i tried to have an enjoyable game with you guys but now it turns out that i am "the bad guy" for whatever reason. thx for ruining this game! find someone else to play the a$$hole for you.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gavin the Great
|
|
well i know this is just a game and i tried to play it though gumpolds behavior annoys me but i didnt want to get personal i just stated comments in that role playing manner.
but dancemasseuse thinks he is so wise with his "teachings", and that he has to prove something to me. he makes up bullshit about me without properly reading my posts. like "almost ever response you have given each person who has disagreed with you went beyond negotiations". what is that supposed to mean man? what is "almost every response" and what do you mean with "beyond negotiations"? when? where? gimme some examples man! i absolutely dont get your problem! i was just playing a game and you start to make a big deal of it! you are full of yourself man, you just had to show how important you are making up all this sh!t without thinking first! yes, right now im being "not diplomatic" but thats coz you gave me a reason! and yes, right now i really think that my point is right and yours is wrong! thats coz there are posts that show how i really talked to the others, that is: not rude and tolerant(check it yourself!!!) but you have nothing to back up your point except things you make up. you are throwing sh!t at me that is not even true and you are making problems where none are! think bout your own behavior first before you try to preach others!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gavin the Great
|
|
sorry if anyone gets annoyed by this fight but i just have to sort it. Here is an overview of the major events that happened since i joined the game. The main convo between me and the other nations, without the off topic stuff like broken emails or nextings etc. If you dont trust me and think i cut important things out or changed something, compare this to the original posts(starting on page 15).
Gavin: "1265 A.D.
At last the anarchy in Wales is over! The Welsh have finally found a worthy leader! Hail to His Holliness Gavin the Great!"
---(at this point i offered peace treaties to everyone)
gumpold: "Welsh- There can be no peace with Canada until you return the city of Whitehorse and all cities taken from the Romans!"
---
Gavin: "We agree on returning Whitehorse to Canada and three roman cities(Gallia Antium, Gallia Asturica and Gallia Argentoratum) to Rome.
However we will not return the rest of the roman cities(Rome, Pompeii, Antium, Caesarea, Agustodonum, Neapolis, Agrippina and Jerusalem) as they have become to important for us. Instead we offer to pay the romans 500 gold for each of those cities, which is a total of 4000 gold. If you, Romans, agree on the peace treaty we will pay you 1500 gold in 5 years(1 turn) and then 50 gold each 5 years until the total amount is paid (in maximum 50 turns from now).
We also wish to make peace with the Assyrians and Native Americans. Tell us your demands and we will try to fulfill them."
---(4000 gold man! you say that is nothing? you still say that i took the cities without offering anything for it? and if youre gonna say "but you said yourself that one city is more worth than 500 gold!" true, but that was the most i could afford at that moment and it was just a starting offer, the birdman had the right to demand more which i would not question! i would not be rude just keep NEGOTIATING!)
Maq: "Give me your map and disband all your non-basic garrison military units and ill make peace too. (Im the Assyrians)"
---
Gavin: "Agreed. You will receive the maps together with the peace treaty and all special military units will be disbanded.
has the birdman played his last turn(145) or has he been nexted? my peace treaty has been rejected by the romans but im not sure if it was an intended or automatic rejection! canadians, please do not attack until the romans have stated their decision!
Assyrians: we thank you for accepting the peace treaty and we hope the future will be free of conflicts!
still waiting for a response from the native americans."
---
dancemasseuse: "I am sorry about not reading the thread for the peace treaty stuff. I will do whatever the Romans agree to. I am in an alliance with him and was aiding him in retaking lost cities. I did not see the offers before my turn so I did execute 3 attacks I had in the plans."
(cut at this spot: "i did not see the offers" - no comment)
"If you make peace with my brothers, the romans, I will leave the cite and let you retake it. the other one I have already disbanded, but if you have a slaver around I will leave the settler and let you slave him. and I will leave from you shores as long as the Romans (thebirdman) agrees to peace with you. If not then I will do as he wishes. he was the injured party and if he settles, I will follow. "
---
The Birdman: "It was not an automatic rejection.
To settle for a peace I demand all the Gallia-region back and all "native" Roman cities to have their names changed to some "unspeakable babarian names"."
---
Gavin: "alright romans, the gallia region is yours and all taken cities will be renamed.
native americans, we want you to give Caerphilly back to the welsh and pay 500 gold for the disbanded city of Augustodonum."
---
dancemasseuse: "I will give back the taken city, but I will not pay for a city I disbanded during war. It started out as a city belonging to my ally the Romans (notice the name of the city is Roman, not Welsh), but since we were at a war not of our choosing I will not pay for it. If that is not acceptable then I am sorry, but again it was a city of conquest not one of yours in the first place. I do not mean to sound so hard, but I find it unreasonable to ask me to pay for something that you took from my ally.
I took your "Peace", accepted your "no trespass", moved out of the one city Caerphilly, and left your area. The rest is up to the Welsh. "
---
i thought it was strange that you offer to give me a settler but at the same time dont wanna pay 500 gold which i thought was less worth than a settler and thus more beneficial for you. but since you didnt agree i decided to simply leave that behind and not bother with forcing something out of you. the only thing i added was my explanation that i thought 500 gold is less worth than a settler(all backed up) and thus i didnt try to force more out of you but wanted a smaller exchange for the disbanded city! then you said that a settler is free for disbanding a city. i replied that the settler wasnt free but the prize for it was the city itself which is a lot more worth than 500 gold. you added nothing more to it....
peace has been established with all nations except canada who kept attacking me ignoring my peace offers. that is the point where we exchanged some hard words but that is part of the game! although it was really annoying to see that the prize for my peace efforts are two captured cities i tried not to get personal but keep an ingame tone. nobody had a problem with our verbal fight which was a part of the game!
thats when you came in saying lies about me for no reason and basically starting all this:
"You also need to remember with some of the comments you have made to other players that they have circumstances like yours too. They changed all their production to military and moved large armies towards your old predecessor. Those armies eat up a lot of production each turn. So just because your the new player and want peace, you need to keep this in mind too. Why should they just take all these units back home, sit them down and eat at their production each turn and then as the game progresses they will become obsolete and maybe disband them to aid the production. Plus why leave you with one of the largest city size empires...."
...and so on...
briefly:
you are saying i dont care bout the interest of other players, insult them and i have no rights to keep the cities(look above: my convo with the birdman)
my response: i AM dissapointed, offended and i think that your point of view is ignorant BECAUSE ---> you make up stuff and dont consider the fact that i acctually had good and polite diplomatic conversations with the others(except with gumpold which was a convo like in hundreds of other strategy games on the net. though i was quite mad it was just a "ruler vs ruler during war time" convo with no personal insults).
then you say that you are oh so offended coz i dare to state my point again which i tried to keep polite but the things you see as offending are a result of your statements(see above) and thus justified. i am not attacking you, i am defending myself against your attack. of course you notice only that i offended you but you dont even think that you might have offended me with your previous post. then you keep going on how rude and selfish i am and you are obviously trying to play the objective and smart guy!
thats the point when im fed up with all the sh!t and getting aggresive coz you are still being ignorant towards my previous actions and still keep telling lies about me. PLUS: you feel confident coz you now have something to back up your opinion that i am rude coz i have said you are ignorant. but guess what or better WHO is the reason that i am being rude? now, PLEASE, state your arguments..... and if you have none except your ussual LIES then better just shut up.
Last edited by Gavin the Great on 02-12-2004 at 13:13
|
|
| |
|
|
|
dancemasseuse
|
|
Houston
Jul 2002
time: 23:17
|
|
no kidding. it is roleplaying. I was trying to get Gavin to see another point of view. Instead I have been accused of "lying" Ignorance, dissapointing and even more. Just stop and quit trying to shout me down. I am sure others here do not want to hear more gripping so I will stop. Please do the same without adding a few barbs at me again. Ken
|
|
| |
|
|
|
dancemasseuse
|
|
Houston
Jul 2002
time: 23:17
|
|
now back to the Game....
Oh mighty inheritor of the Welsh empire, I have abandonded the city of Cearphilly for its return to your fold. Know that there are no units in the city. Please go ahead and occupy it at your time schedule and send me a peace treaty again after, so we may once again enjoy peaceful relations.
To the current occupiers of the city known or formerly known as Citric Acid: I will be passing thruogh the straits with a large fleet in the grand return home. Please do no be alarmed and allow us safe passage. I believe it is orange/canadian, but you never know sometimes who may currently occupy it.
Ken/dancemasseuse leader of the native americans
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Gavin the Great
|
|
oh no man, not that fast! you think you can end it quickly by saying that i accused you for nothing and that your attempts to "teach me the way" are totally innocent and justified. "quit trying to shout me down", "back to the game" and nothing ever happened... sure.
"I was trying to get Gavin to see another point of view."
what other point of view? what for? you really think you have to teach me something? you act like i was a little child that has to be told a way to talk with others! i know its roleplaying! i know others have their interests and opinions too and i showed that i know it! so why tell me something that i already know! there was no need to, you just had to show how important you are.
"Instead I have been accused of "lying" Ignorance, dissapointing and even more."
my accusations against you are justified so dont moan:
"almost every response you have given each person who has disagreed with you went beyond "negotiations"" - lie.
"you are asking them to walk away with nothing" - lie.
"Plus why leave you with one of the largest city size empires just because the other guy did it? " - coz i discussed it with the romans and they agreed that i can keep those cities! you didnt notice that. ignorance.
"Again saying I did not see what you just pointed out again" - you admit yourself that you did not see that i disbanded all my special units for the assyrians, though it was no secret and available for everyone to read. you just keep telling me how unaware i am bout the interests of others. ignorance.
and though im not your daddy i have a right to be dissapointed coz i tried to have some fun on here and you just ruined it!
as you see my arguments are stable and backed up by original and complete citates, while you have nothing to counter me except making stuff up and leaving major things out. i just cornered you and you are trying to switch the attention from this discussion back to the game. you have no rational counter arguments so you use the other players as your explanation for the retreat("I am sure others here do not want to hear more gripping so I will stop.") and you try to make me shut up coz you know that i can effectively prove my point("Please do the same without adding a few barbs at me again" and
"Please do not try and give me another lecture on how your point is right and any one who disagrees with you is "ignorant", "dissapointing", or "oh god, kill me now...""). its not that easy man.
"So again just because the points you made again are valid, does not mean the other points are any less valid."
i have never questioned that! but in this case my point is backed up, youre not even trying to back up yours coz theres no way. all you do is trying to get away and moan. of course you can make up sh!t about me without properly reading my posts, you can insult me and think its ok, and my comments(that i just backed up!) are belittling and "not appreciated". sure, i understand you, mr. objective. here's something for you: "you need to know me better before you insult me again."
and as i said im outta this game. at the moment i feel like setting all my cities to produce pikes and send them down your ass. yes, i am mad at the moment but i have a fvcking reason to be mad! sorry for another long post, but i just have to say this coz i wont let some twofaced smartass slam me down for no reason and let him get away with that.
goodbye
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Max Webster
|
|
Btw...
Maquiladora has that always been your username?
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:17.
Apolyton Time is 00:17. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
29-11-2004 22:49
and so have others. That's the way it should be (I could give some links to some of the better, just give me a little time to find them again).
I'm getting Deva Vu from reading these posts.
|