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Yxklyx
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Do the special bonuses apply when the land or sea squares are lowered or raised? For instance, there's that new SMAX water location which is in the middle of the ocean and kind of useless for anyone other than the Pirates. Can it be raised and used?
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Yxklyx
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can't you just lower the terrain instead?
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johndmuller
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Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Feb 2001
time: 00:17
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I read in some other thread that one could expand the inland sea by dredging around the shore (thus lowering adjacent previously dry land) as long as you didn't break through into the ocean. IIRC, it went on to describe how you could even expand into what had originally been the ocean if you first built up the ocean coastline to push it back and then submerged the land from the inland sea side (still maintaining a dry land separation between them). I don't know that this works, although I've been thiniking about trying it in a current game.
Regarding saving the jungle (or other stuff for that matter) from the floods, I've wondered whether raising the land all around the threatened territory would work. In other words, you would erect a ridge of 1000-1999m high tiles surrounding the endangered area. Assuming you raised a 0-999m tile adjacent to the special area tile (also in the 0-999m range) it would not cause the special area tile to be raised and so should not cause it to lose its special properties. First, while it wouldn't necessarily raise the special area tile above 1000, it might cause it to change somewhat, as there appears to be a bit of a rearrangement of heights whenever you change a neighboring tile. This might happen to save a tile from a small flood by moving it up slightly, but the real question is whether this **** would protect the low lying land behind it or would the flood ignore it and just create an atoll/doughnut formation?
Regarding the monoliths, I can say for sure that monoliths submerged by either global warming or nukes are still usable (and quite nice) as sea monoliths. As for doing it yourself with a sea former, I am pretty sure that works, but I can't remember for sure whether or not I ever actually did it.
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Yxklyx
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I believe the flooding algorithm only looks at the elevation of the square so building walls of higher terrain wouldn't stop low elevation terrain from flooding. The water just seeps up through the sandstone-like ground.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:17
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I don't think the adjacent ridge idea will save the jungle. In an earlier thread I learned of a concept called "washing" which if i understand correctly works like this. There is an sealevel rise which would submerge your low elevation jungle squares but the game will not permit the square to REMAIN below sealevel since there are adjacent 1000m+ squares. So on the fateful year the square drops below sealevel for a moment and loses all jungle attributes, terraforming and units before the tectonic forces realign and the square has a positive elevation once more. You never see the square below sealevel but there is almost a flash flood effect
I had this happen to me once over multiple squares. I opened a turn to find that not only had the jungle disappeared but so had all my terraforming and formers over a 4 or 5 square area.
The moral for me is that if the searises are serious, there may be no way to save the jungle bonus but by pulling at the highest points on your land mass, you can keep the elevations high enough that none of your improved land will be even temporarily submerged and lost.
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Yxklyx
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On random maps I play, the Freshwater Sea usually ends up being covered by land (bug?). If I sink the land would I get the benefit?
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spartak
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Have you tried it to see?
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:17
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Re: The Fossil Field Ridge
This is a good landmark for the Pirates. Since they can terraform ocean/trench squares without raising them to shelf (after discovering Adv. Ecol. Eng.) a Farm/Mine constructed here yields 3 Nuts/4 mins with Aquafarm/Trunkline. Do the whole ridge like this and the base set there gets to be quite productive.
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moi
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quote:
Originally posted by Mongoose
Re: The Fossil Field Ridge
This is a good landmark for the Pirates. Since they can terraform ocean/trench squares without raising them to shelf (after discovering Adv. Ecol. Eng.) a Farm/Mine constructed here yields 3 Nuts/4 mins with Aquafarm/Trunkline. Do the whole ridge like this and the base set there gets to be quite productive. |
nope, it aint worth shit. why? beacause pirates get +1mineral on all shelf squares. so you leave it how it is? its the same as a shelf square. you raise it? it loses its special and becomes the same as a shelf square.
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Yxklyx
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Well, now you've got me worred. Can anyone else verify that the Freshwater Sea no longer appears on randomly generated maps? I even started a game using SMAC Classic with an Ocean world and there was no Freshwater Sea. It appears that if there is lots of water it doesn't appear and if there's lots of land it appears but underneath a continent and so is useless. How do you tell the version of the game you're running?
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Yxklyx
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quote:
nope, it aint worth ****. why? beacause pirates get +1mineral on all shelf squares. so you leave it how it is? its the same as a shelf square. you raise it? it loses its special and becomes the same as a shelf square. |
Very good observation. The only way I think it would be useful is if it starts next to a shelf - build as many bases as you can on it. The bases will get +1 mineral for the base square and can use the nearby shelf squares for development. I actually did this in one game in which I was hemmed in and my alternatives were few.
On a side note, can't find a good use for those Ocean squares? Drop a fungal payload on them - the fungus will net you better resources.
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:17
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No, Fitz. That's exactly the point. For the Pirates (only, on account of their innate special faction ability) the FFR (or any other deep water) square can be terraformed without raising it to shelf. In this case, the FFR square DOES NOT lose its +1 Min bonus.
Johndmuller - right in fact, wrong in conclusion.
Yes, in the circumstances I have described, the ridge squares become functional shelf equivalents. Wrong in concluding that it is... worthless.  Usually, if not always, the ridge is located in a deep water part of the map. It can be valuable indeed to be able to place a productive base in such a place. Alternatively, sometimes there are no remaining good shelf sites. (Defensibility and/or proximity to the empire core are reasons that come to mind.) Finally, there is some benefit in having a base that won't be nearly as productive for any would be conquereor.
One final note. A base sited on a ridge square will provide the Pirates with 3 Mins in the base square. That's pretty sweet in a the early game when minerals are a bit hard to come by.
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gwillybj
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Eurytion Mining Colony: 165°C dayside, 165°F nightside
Mar 2001
time: 00:17
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I have used the map editor to make new maps at least a couple of dozen times. I let the generator create a map, then I edit it (as little as possible). Very frequently Freshwater Sea ends up in a completely useless place, often only one or two spaces of water. Indeed, sometimes it is nowhere at all. The program creates the landmasses and then sprinkles the landmarks randomly over the map. It does not appear to test the location first to determine if it is logical. This can lead to having 2, 3!, 4!! landmarks on a single landmass. New Sargasso and Geothermal Shallows are always in water, but not always entirely in water. Sometimes you get only half the spaces.
The odd thing about it is every landmark, except Freshwater Sea and Monsoon Jungle, alters the underlying terrain when placed so its base elevation is <1000m above (or below) sea level.
If you create or edit a map and place the landmarks yourself, you will see these results.
Place any land-based feature on top of any terrain >1000m and you will see all the landmark spaces dropped <1000m. It is especially noticeable if you put them on a highland plateau >3000m. The landmark will be in a bowl. If it is Garland Crater, Mount Planet, Sunny Mesa, or Pholus Ridge, it will stick up from the bowl, and the highest point of the landmark will be <2000m (the center of Mount Planet will be 3500m).
If you place New Sargasso or Geothermal Shallows in the middle of a trench or deep-sea plain, the depth will be raised to <1000m.
But, wherever you place Monsoon Jungle, it just adds the feature. The elevation does not change. You can have the entire feature >3000m if you want to.
Nessus Canyon is a strange and beautiful thing. If placed on a highland plain, the result looks like the Grand Canyon. If placed on a lowland, it looks like a fault that was raised and split open.
Placement of Freshwater Sea can be tricky if there is a lot of water and no very large landmasses. You might have to create a landlocked lake yourself if you definitely want to include it.
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Yxklyx
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gwillybj: O.K. I see what you mean. It wasn't obvious before. The Freshwater Sea MUST be surrounded by land. The text always appears over the land just to the south of it. Interesting to note that every single square in that body of water gets the bonus nutrient.
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wheathin
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The Freshwater Sea applies to all the contiguous water squares, and I beleive you can change their elevation and they will remain fresh (i.e. change ocean to shelf). This, like the jungle, can be any size. Also, I beleive you can have multiple Seas if you use the map editor, just like you can have multiple Jungles, Flats, and Shallows.
If you wanted a more food-rich waterworld, you can make the entire ocean Fresh. And since the Fresh attribute persists even if a land-locked lake is opened to the ocean, you can create Fresh bays or channels that are part of the general ocean.
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MariOne
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Erewhon in Neverland
May 1999
time: 06:17
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nice observations gwill.
I just kicked a couple of tests for the Freshwater with SMAX, (start a normal game, then Ctrl+K to test).
In one I customised a huge map, using low ocean coverage hoping for higher chances to get landlocked water bodies.
I got a few, but none was Freshwater
I then started a Standard random but no customised map, got rather compact continets with a couple ofm very small lakes, and there it was.
see attachment.
Most unusually, it was constitued of 2 close single-tile lakes!
I confirm what wheatin said.
With the exception that to my recollection (didn't test it again now) while in normal play if you connect the freswater to the ocean, all its tiles become salted and the landmark effect is lost.
While you *build* a new map with the scenario instead, if you *apply* the freshwater landmark in water that is not completely landlocked, the effect spreads to the whole ocean.
I am indeed playing a pbem where an unexperienced CMN built up the map with 2-nuts Fresh ocean squares... if it was his intention, he didn't declare it...
 Attachment: smax freshwater.bmp
This has been downloaded 18 time(s).
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09-01-2002 01:24
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