11-01-2002 18:57									#1
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Attack Force Strength; 12 Units

3 Infantry - Highest Morale - Best Weapon - No armor
2 Attack Rovers- Best Weapon-No Armor
2 Armored Rovers - Best Armor - Deep Radar- Trance
1 Rover Artillery - Cheapest Weapon-No Armor
1 Infantry Artillery- Best Weapon -No Armor
1 Probe Team - unarmored-
2 Armored Garrison- Laser Weapon- Best Armor- ECM

The force moves forward towards the enemy base with the rover units scouting out ahead using their deep radar and trance special abililities. The attack Rovers attack anything that threatens the infantry units.

When you reach the target base- the infantry and armored units approach the base with the idea of attacking from the best square- a rocky square for example.

The Armored Deep Radar Rovers attempt to get behind the target base and use their Zone of control to block re-inforcements from reaching the base.

The infantry artillery unit stays with the infantry to protect from artillery attack and fires on the base defenders to weaken them.

The Probe team helps the armored rovers sneak through enemy zones of control, and is then used to protect the newly captured base from counter espionage.

The rover artillery has the mission of attempting to disable enemy sensors and roads or other valuable infrastructure-stacked with the armored rovers is best.

The attack rovers continue to defend the infantry by destroying any threats, and stand ready to finish off any base defenders the infantry doesnt kill first.

When the units are in position, the artillery fires first- then the infantry-then the rovers. Assuming the attack is successful, all the units enter the captured base to heal and await reinforcements.

Reinforcements should include police garrison units if social engineering makes that practical. A few supply crawlers to supply minerals to quickly rebuild needed base facilities. Also armored formers to repair combat damaged infrastructure.

	11-01-2002 19:56									#2
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When you get needlejets- Add 6 of these to your attack force equipped with deep radar. And add three fighters as well.

Use the 6 longer range bombers to go deep into enemy territory , 2 at a time. Rotated thus way they have time to heal between missions. Use them to cut off the target base, preventing reinforcements, and to attack weak targets. Keep in mind that you should try to use the needlejets zones of control to funnel enemy troops into areas in which they can be killed by your attack rovers. That is to say position the jets over rocky squares, forcing the enemy into open ground if possible.

Use the fighters to cover your infantry.

	11-01-2002 23:55									#3
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You know, I've rarely found the need, or to be honest about it the ability, to use combined arms tactics before doc:air. In MP LAN I exclusively play directed huge planet, so I always get doc:air way before serious conflicts require redirecting resources from expansion/infrastructure. And against the AI, it's generally enough to make 6 best weapon rovers per base you want to capture and swarm them (huge planet).

The few times I've used an attack force with any infantry or artillery prior to doc:air is on standard or smaller planets, SP, where I have been hemmed in early and thus had a short expansion phase. This means earlier completion of the infrastucture, a keener eye towards military buildup, and most importantly less distance to the enemy.

Planet size and distance to the enemy is what determines the almost exclusive use of rovers to me. It is *cheaper* to make the same number of rovers (and lose more to ECM/counter attacks) if you still succeed in the conquest in half the time (traveling & combat at the far end).

Speed of conquest generally dictates my lack of artillery. If two extra direct attackers means I get the base in 2-3 extra rounds (bombardment time & extra direct kills), I usuall trade that of for survivability too.

The critical question to me is this: Is it more important to harrass the enemy or to keep my forces intact (and keep the base I capture with those intact forces longer than the starve down & disbanding period).

If one (typical on larger planets with more distant opponents) then go with more rovers with less defense to get there faster and do faster damage. If two, use combined arms (offensive, defensive, artillery & probe) or even combined chassis.

Now post doc:air is an entirely different matter to me. By that time, it is all about the opponents skill. Against humans, they start to have really good defenses set up, so you have a no-brainer choice: Lose your single type force to the prepared opponent, or use combined arms tactics. Against the AI, it usually stays a time/benefits issue as before, with the added stipulation that I can afford to pump more minerals into military as time passes, so I can try combined arms just because it is so cool.

	12-01-2002 01:36									#4
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So far in MP I haven't have the opportunity to rage long-term war against any humans so I haven't quite grasp the usefulness of different types of arnament and units. The only game I got involved in such a battle took place on a standard map and the two sides were Hive (myself) and Drones (my human opponent). Divided by some wasteland (= nonterraformed inbetween land). Prior to air the game turned into a sluggerfest. Hive sending in sqaudron of rovers and probes, Drones defending with equal amount. This tactic kept the Drones (who had more allies) on their toes which lead to a suprise attack later on with nervegas needles. My first bomb-raid reduced my opponent somewhat.

Anyway, my point is that if you put too much effort into building a "Attack Force" instead send small guerilla teams and keep your opponent on their toes forcing them to take a hold on tech advances and infrastructure. Keep them as far away from Choppers as possible. If you get to choppers or as in my case (nervegas-needles) the game is won.

	12-01-2002 01:46									#5
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Yes, for sure, you can just build huge quantities of rovers and overwhelm the enemy. But I just have more fun moving troops around , in various combinations. It gets to be even more entertaining when you can build your entire force with Elite units, giving you Rovers with three moves and infantry with two moves, plus the infantry vs. base and Elite bonus. Elite no armor infantry are some of my very favorite units. Cheap, fast, and deadly.

	12-01-2002 02:10									#6
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Well if you are talking about fun, then Yes, I agree. Although my favourite-constellation would be Mindworm, Rover bestweapon, infantry bestweapon, and a couple of rover best armour-combo.

	12-01-2002 21:15									#7
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Those are valid points. One key thing in favor of a balanced force, is protection of your most powerful attacker, the best weapon infantry guy. He has two advantages, number one being the infantry vs. base bonus and the second being that there is no specific defensive special ability that your enemy can use to defend against him.

The base defenders may have AA to defend against air units, or ECM to defend agains rovers, but against infantry, their special abilities are useless.

So if your enemies armor is about as strong as your weapons, its possible that the infantry is the only choice you have that is strong enough to take out the strongest defenders of your target base.

And if you use ONLY infantry, than the enemy can just build quantity of basic defenders, rather than the more expensive ones. But if you have rovers, infantry, and Air, he doesnt dare do that.

The problem is always getting the infantry within range of the target base, and the combinination of air cover, artillery, and rovers to support them is the best answer to that problem.

I especially love Elite infantry Marines. Two moves, Elite attack bonus, infantry attack bonus, amphibious, and there is no special ability that can be used to defend against them.

I only wish they would put a "Tell it to the Marines" choice in the diplomatic communications.

	16-01-2002 01:31									#8
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Guys, Whatever happened to armored land transport units?

I love these guys. (Yeah I know they're a little pricey but....)

They serve double duty. Best armor on them allows an extra movement point for your best weapon infantry. Thereby allowing non elites to attack from two squares distant or elites from 3 squares distant. After the base is captured the armored transport reaches the base for garrison/defensive duty.

That being said, I'ld also agree the Marines just rock. A transport full of these boys is just asking to be unleashed on AI sea bases.

Og

	16-01-2002 01:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Whatever happened to armored land transport units?

Question, If the land transport is attacked and losses, do you lose all your infantry like with sea transports ?

	16-01-2002 02:02									#10
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I think that Artillery is somewhat underrated. It is very versitile in that it is important both offensively and defensively and can also be used very effectively against native life; in fact it can also be used to good effect against ships and even aircraft (with the SAM ability - which, unlike when used on planes, does not come with a corresponding debillitation). It is most damaging when one side has it and the other doesn't - you will note that the AI almost always switches to artillery if you start to bombard it.

IMhO, as a matter of reality, strike aircraft should attack in the fashion of artillery, causing percentage damage rather than to-the-death results, at least when going after units in the open with no AAA in the stack. I think that a/c are somewhat overpowered in the game and that might equalize things a bit. In a base, bombers should be able to damage and/or destroy facilities in addition to, instead of, or after successfully engaging units; perhaps a choice of targets should be offered as in destroying enhancements and sabotage.

	16-01-2002 02:40									#11
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Mr D,

That's the beauty of land transports. The transported unit does Not go poof. The biggest downside to land transports is they carry only one unit. So again price vs. utility comes into play. But for my money the double duty is worth the min. investment. What's more is that they retain their usefulness even later on with the advent of MMI you upgrade them to drop capable. Presto, insertion of most any unit you wish. (Although IIRC, as its been awhile since I played, I believe there is a one turn delay before you can move the dropped unit, perfect though to drop a ECM or AAA or police defender and a armored transport into a newly captured base)

Happy Smacing all

Og

	16-01-2002 02:46									#12
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John D M,

I agree with your sentiments on airpower, actually I think air power used for ground strikes should always be an arty resolved attack. Further I think Arty combat would have been better served by using a different combat resolution rather than arbitrarily assigning maximum damage allowable. I wished Firaxis had simply made Arty combat a one turn/round resolved combat. This would then allow massed arty/air strike the capability to eliminate units (which I personally think is realistic) but more often than not would simply cause damage.

Anyhoo just my two photons

Og

	16-01-2002 03:11									#13
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re: land transports

I forgot perhaps the best benefit of all. (Man it's been awhile). Pod Lotto. Opening a pod with a transport seems to yield better odds of getting a Alien Artifact. In later game after advent of MMI I like to send drop transports with a former and a worm to do pod lotto in land otherwise not colonized.

Former creates air base for return trip home with hopefully AA in the cargo bay. Worm is along for the ride in case the pod is infested with worms. Worms tend not to attack other worms.

Og

	16-01-2002 15:48									#14
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Ogie;
I didn't even know that you could do insertions from airbase (I read the manual, but seem to have forgot this detail). And I had never found a good use for Airfields. So this could be one of the best...? Anyway, thanks for the tip, Ogie

	16-01-2002 19:02									#15
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Ogie, if the transport holds only one unit, how does the worm "go along for the ride"? Does the transport capacity increase with a fusion reactor? Or are you just using two transports?

I have used these transports in the past - without the drop upgrade- as a defensive booster. I build one per base, plus one rover ber base. The transport can then take the rover out into the trouble spot, effectively giving the rover an extra move. Also usefull for zoc blocking, you can send out the transport with a garrison to hold a specific point in a delaying action while you bring in troops from elsewhere. For example if there are two bunkers , the transport can occupy one, and the garrison the other.

To justify the expense of the unit, I also use it to speed up my terraforming by moving the formers around a bit faster, eliminating as many "non terraforming " turns as possible. Not sure that this is actually more effective than just building a second former, which is probably what a sane person would do, but......

	16-01-2002 19:16									#16
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Drago,


I typically use two transports one for the former and one for the worm. The worm ususally goes first.

Og

	16-01-2002 19:18									#17
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And how about if the transport is Elite? Does it get an extra movement point for that?

	16-01-2002 19:59									#18
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Drago, that is a very interesting question... Oh, the possibilities!

	16-01-2002 20:24									#19
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Hmm. I am thinking of an invasion that starts with a drop transport into a empty enemy bunker, a probe team comes out of the transport and takes down the perimeter defense. Immediately behind the now empty transport you drop in some more tranports with troops, and a former that builds an air base, or maybe a colony pod so you have an escape route-just in case.. Then on the next turn the troops use the transports to move up to the target base, saving their movement points for the attack.

Or maybe, just for fun , a commando raid. You send in some drop transports with probe teams- the probe teams bribe a local former to build an airbase! They bribe some troops with a weapon you have not researched yet, or maybe just to divert the enemies attention from something else you are doing that you dont want them to notice. The troops and former board the transports and take off back home from the airbase you just built with the bribed former. Then you send in a waiting bomber to take out the airbase- so the enemy isnt quite sure how the hell you just did that.

	16-01-2002 21:33									#20
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my mind is spinning - What kind of drop transports are you speaking of? What chassis? What's the best chassis for a transport anyway?

	16-01-2002 21:41									#21
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One of the downsides to the drop-transports is that, unlike the other kinds of transports, the trip uses up the passenger's turn as well as the transport's, so that there is no springing out of the transport to do probe missions, etc. You have to wait out a turn before you can do anything.

It is possible to do stuff before being transported, however, like being upgraded from a shell or arriving at the base with the transport.

	16-01-2002 21:50									#22
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Why not then use Drop Probe Teams instead? They can move the turn they land right? I don't see the advantage of Drop Transports.

	16-01-2002 21:56									#23
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My post refers to an infantry chassis- with transport as the "weapon", and then you add armor, and "Drop Pods" as a later upgrade (special ability). I think that is what OO means in his posts, too. In some configurations you can add ECM for free, too, as I recall. A Rover Chassis does not give the second movement point, for some strange reason.


If I am right, from memory, you can build one on a hovertank chassis also, much more costly but gets an extra movement point.

johndmuller, I dont remember the transports using up the passengers move too. Or is that just with drop pods?

	16-01-2002 22:00									#24
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Yxklyx, I think there are two advantages, one- the transports are multipurpose- you can use them for all sorts of wierd stuff.

But mostly , in my case, just for fun. Not really for any practical purpose.

	17-01-2002 00:09									#25
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Drop Probe teams cannot move after they drop. All non-combats lose their turn after dropping. Theoretically this includes any former, probe, transport or supply. However, someone reported being able to move an armored hovertank probe after dropping a while back.

Drago, I believe johnd means that the transport uses the pasengers turn when you drop, not when you move regularly. Or maybe you got that already.

	17-01-2002 03:12									#26
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Drago et.al.

Yes the downside to a drop capable transport is that the transported unit does give up its ability to move the same turn. Not that this is necessarily a problem for the pod lotto approach. And yes this also holds true for drop enabled probe teams.

The only way I know of to insert a unit say a probe team and allow it to move inthe same turn is to build Hueys. (Warning: the below approach may be considered dubious). Build a chopper chassis based transport. Load a probe team on it. Set out on your journey. If memeory serves fission based movement rate is 4sq/turn and fusion is 5 sq/turn. You can move the unit a total range of 4 * movement rate - 1 square before the chopper totally crashes and destroys its transported unit as well. At or near the end of it's journey either hit cntrl-u or use the menu option to unload the chopper (I forget which one works)and out pops the probe team with full movement intact. What this means is for an elite standard PT you can easily insert it intercontinentally (15 squares fission or 19 squares fusion) albeit in 4 turns and still have 3 full movement point remaining more than enuff to cause major havoc. Whats more is b/c the huey doesn't actually attack any AI unit or tear up the t-forming it doesn't scramble defenses. As such this is the perfect opener to a surprise attack campaign. Otherwise you'll need to consider fighter escort similar to sea born transports/sea probe unit.

	17-01-2002 18:53									#27
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Just to refresh my aging memory, I tested some infantry drop transports. The transported unit does indeed lose its movement point during a drop. I had forgotten about that.

The transport does get an extra move for being Elite. Though you have to build it as an elite, you cannot upgrade at a monolith.

Also I noticed that if they are empty, you cant drop them into enemy territory. If they are carrying a combat unit, then you can.

I was using them to drop in behind the target base to delay reinforcements while the infantry popped out and attacked the base.

And thanks for mentioning these cool little guys, Ogie O, I had forgotten all about them.

	17-01-2002 21:24									#28
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These drop pod transports are wierd little dudes. They can enter a seabase from a land square, but only if its your base, not a pactmate's base. I cant figure that one out.

And last night I swear I used one to drop into enemy territory, but I can not get that to work today. And error message pops up , a screen showing little guys dropping from the sky- saying non-combat units can not drop into enemy territory or zones of control.

Any way they are fun little guys. I was using a level 5 armor/ecm and commondo morale. Strong enough to survive any attack up to fusion weapons if its in good defensive terrain. The fusion troops destroyed the transport, but were reduced to "red" status in the battle. If they attacked at less than full strength- the fusion troops lost to the transport.

Another odd thing is that the troops that were in the transport dont take any damage when the transport is destroyed.

I had three transports loaded with elite unarmored shard tanks, dropped the transports in just at the edge of my territory, three squares from the target base. Then the next turn the transports advanced right up to the base, and the shard tanks each fired four times. It was one of those AI bases with about twenty defenders. When the remaining base defenders attacked on the next turn, they were defeated by the transports, because they had been reduced in strength by my artillery, also in a transport , two squares from the base. The shard tanks took the base on the next turn.

I had also placed two more transports on rocky squares in the enemy territory along our common border to mess with the enemies abilility to reinforce the base.

I also had a former build a sensor while stacked with a transport for protection.

With a fusion reactor and level 5 armor the cost is 30 minerals for the transport. ECM is free-Drop pods raise the cost to 50.

You can get an extra movement point by building on a hovertank chassis- that cost 60 mins with level 5 armor and ecm or 90 mins if you add drop pods instead of ECM. Cost goes over 100 if you add 2 specials.

So , if you have the Social Engineering to build Elite Units, you can get a well protected 2 movement point transport unit for 30 Mins. , the same as an ECM garrison unit. Seems like a very versatile unit for the cost.

Note that you cannot built them "trained" or get a monolith upgrade.

Last edited by Drago Sinio on 17-01-2002 at 21:36

	09-02-2002 04:18									#29
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The reason that rover transports only have one movement point is that the Transport equipment autmatically reduces movement by one (which is why sea transports are slower thn combat ships).