13-01-2002 21:29									#1
	The future of civ multiplaying -the next road?- Got spare money?

Seen that the previous thread about Civ3 has petered out. I've decided to launch a new one about the future prospect of Civ MP in general.

• First question: With several Civ2 veterans (still holding out myself )having played Civ3 for a few months now. How's it holding up? It seems Civ3 has a good start but completely bogs down in the end game
  
• Second question: What are the prospects for Civ3 MP, will the current gameplay make it harder or easier to do a quick/long game?
  
• Third question: Has anyone gone looking for alternatives? I've gone back to playing scenarios and playtesting Freeciv, anyone else?
  

	14-01-2002 02:36									#2
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1.Not very well.Ancient era good..rest..eh..not so good.I find myself "waiting" alot after ancient period.Waiting for Knights.Waiting for suitable boats.Waiting for Cavalry.
Since there is nothing I can do to speed up research beyond a certain point...I wait.And wait.
Exploring is gone...almost.I didn't realize how much of the game revolved around uncovering that black area.Civ3 worlds are filled up fast.Anything on the map that is black at 10ad or so is water.No use exploring there.

2.Unsure.Looks like it will be slow going.Then again,maybe not.The mid game tedium of tech broker/diplomat will not be a problem in MP.Doesn't seem to be a way around having lots of workers though.Especially in later phases when pollution rears it's ugly head.
Forget about UU and special abilties.It will be too unbalancing.
Strategic resources could be tricky.
I dunno.Somehow the idea of playing XX hours and still be in Despo......progress is slow.Then again,Despo is probably the best government
Good for 1 night slug fests..although it may take 40 turns before you see your first decent offensive unit...beyond that looks iffy to me.
Maybe simul play!?
Stuff like bombarding terrain and capturing units seems like it would be fun in MP.
Something drastic will need to be done to corruption.Right now you can only make a relatively small part of the map productive.While war has been made more appealing,the incentive has been removed.Otherwise you stay in Despo and use corruption free pop rushing.Games may never proceed.The only barriers may be oceans.

3.Yes.I'm having another look at SMAC.Not really loving what I'm seeing but it does have that "discovery" aspect to it.

Last edited by Smash on 14-01-2002 at 02:45

	14-01-2002 22:18									#3
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1. Haven't played civ3 since December 7 (partly due to boredom, partly due to BG2). Seems to me that boredom sets in after expansion to the corruption limit is achieved, nothing to do but build stuff and raze some enemy cities.

2. I don't know, but it seems like MP would be a rush to get and fight over strategic resources, might be interesting.

3. I've been playing Baldur's Gate 2 and with my recent purchase of Fallout/Fallout 2, civ3 might sit for quite some time.

	14-01-2002 22:26									#4
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1) Could be fun... I'm still enjoying it. But unless they come up with stacked movement... Combat will be early. I don't why you guys say you need to wait for good units. Heck, 10 cheap warriors will give an opponent fits. (as long as you can protect your homeland at the same time from the same thing )

2) UU and civ characteristics will make for a totally unbalanced game. And we won't even get into strategic resourses
And then, the hunt for great leaders. It will force early warfare because building wonders without them is just too much. Plus, how many times are you going to get stuck with a 300 shield granery Great Leaders will add WAY too much luck to the game. I've played some games where I have been on the attack since the beginning, and haven't seen a great leader until way into AD. And other times, I just start getting them and getting them VERY early.

3) Alternatives
I still play Civ II MP when there are people around... and Civ III when I have to play SP. Who needs alternatives.

I just hope CIV III MP will have MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY, options to use to set up the game. All the way from "even" starting positions... to pick your characteristics and special units ( so just picking civs at the start doesn't turn into a whine fest) to setting levels of corruption... and on and on and on.
I did put in my email to ask to join the MP Beta team... I hope they pick me.

	15-01-2002 06:07									#5
	Remove this text

I think the thing that bugs me most of all is moving artillery around - especially when I have the sound on and hear that creaky wheel sound effect over and over and over. Then I make a mouse mistake and have to start my turn again - *creak, creak, creak*, *creak, creak, creak*

Definitely heading back to civ II soon - if I can find players. I felt more in control of that game, by which I mean I understood and could influence what was going on more. This game is too capricious for my taste. City defection, the lack of control over wonder production and the slow science rate drive me nuts. The end game is a micromanagement hell.

So I agree with Ming - must be heavily optioned to be viable as MP. There is no level playing field in the SP

	20-01-2002 02:46									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Boredom.....so that's what it boils down to.

Not in the sense that Civ3 is bad. Plenty of people (mostly first time users it seems) enjoy it, for the moment. But when you've played a previous version you expect a bit more. The original Civ1 had "it" and when they designed Civ2 they were smart enough not to make drastical changes to "it" and keep the game balanced. In Civ3 they tried something new, it's refreshing but the "thing" (I would describe it as gamebalance) that kept Civ1 and 2 interesting was lost.

Really, I don't think Civ3 is bad. In retrospect it just could have been so.. much......better....

	21-01-2002 04:36									#7
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civ3 gets boaring way 2 early in the game... i think that civ2 is a much better game. in civ3 they have changed it 2 much, all the units look the same, 2 easy 2 build up fast, 2 hard 2 build great cities, i can pretty much never fing a great leader, the road movement is dodgy, it get boaring way 2 early in the game (i like saying that), but still its ok, but i still like civ2's sp mode and civ2's mp is easly the best mp game out still,

	22-01-2002 08:12									#8
	ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

1). Ive already uninstalled Civ3.

2). Most MP games wont get past the initial despotic pop rush.

3). Ive just gotten into my 1st Civ2 MP game in 6 months. Im having a great time building caravans to develop trade routes.

Other than that, Ive been playing a lot of Europa Universalis SP and am about to start my 1st MP game of EU. EU is the 1st game since Civ2 that has that "just 1 more turn" feel.

	22-01-2002 10:18									#9
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I am enjoying Civ 3 as a single player game although I think it will struggle to become a good MP game.

Still playing the odd civ2 MP game and a bit of Tot

I think civ2 MP with have a resergence in popularity as players get bored with civ3

	22-01-2002 10:21									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A huge sign of the weakness of Civ III is the Civ III strat forum. Go and check it out - its virtually strat free and hardly gets any posts.

	22-01-2002 11:12									#11
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse A huge sign of the weakness of Civ III is the Civ III strat forum. Go and check it out - its virtually strat free and hardly gets any posts.

Hmmm... I wonder if you checked out all 27 pages, there is tons of good material there

But, I will agree that it doesn't get many posts now... Nobody has really come up with much new lately... so I will agree that that is a weakness

	22-01-2002 17:29									#12
	Got spare money?

Well Mark closed my thread there complainingabout the lack of strat. I thought it was fair comment but never mind.

I'm thinking about things like even last year people were discovering new things about civ II. That says a lot. I'm not sure they'll be doing that with this game.

And I've contributed threads on that strat forum and read a lot but haven't found much response. Which I found disappointing.

	22-01-2002 22:11									#13
	Re: The future of civ multiplaying -the next road?- Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by CapTVK First question: With several Civ2 veterans (still holding out myself )having played Civ3 for a few months now. How's it holding up? It seems Civ3 has a good start but completely bogs down in the end game Second question: What are the prospects for Civ3 MP, will the current gameplay make it harder or easier to do a quick/long game? Third question: Has anyone gone looking for alternatives? I've gone back to playing scenarios and playtesting Freeciv, anyone else?

1. I haven't played Civ 3 since December, and that was only once!
   
2. With the current gameplay, everybody will pop rush and raze cities, only with ancient times technology. It's going to be boring, but it's sure that you'll win this way.
   
3. I never abandoned MoO 2 for a long strategy game, or Starcraft, for a short strategy game (both in MP). And I'm playing a sci-fi succession ToT game, just for fun. Feel free to join, BTW.
   

	23-01-2002 10:38									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

1. Yes Civ 3 has it flawns but I still enjoy it alot. I think all the new fresh ideas is great even if some could be more balanced.

2. I think someone would have to design a special Mod for Civ 3 MP. Strategic resources is one thing that comes to my mind. In SP it works great but in MP I strongly believe it wouldn't work to well. What I would like to see is that units dependable on a strategic resource could be build even withouth it but to a much increased cost. SR would still be important but not crucial.

3. I will continue to play Civ 3, Civ 2 scenarios, CTP 2 and Alpha Centauri. They are all great games and they all have their strong points and weakness. The only alternative for me to these games are Europa Universalis 2.

	30-01-2002 10:31									#15
	civ3 is better than civ2 but is it fast enough for mp? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

civ 3 is a very good game. you will appreciate it as u play it more.
civ3 is more realistic and it is easier for the ai to make good decisions. loopholes for the human to abuse seem to be reduced drastically. resource battles will b huge in mp. but they will need to use faster graphics for mulitiplayer and workers shud b able to b in armies etc etc anything to hone the speed for multiplay. but they want our money. so maybe we shud buy civ2 from hasbro cheap and join freeciv and make a better modified civ2 and save the planet

sell short, free mumia, go to new york this weekend, terry

	31-01-2002 07:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by ColdWizard 3. I've been playing Baldur's Gate 2 and with my recent purchase of Fallout/Fallout 2, civ3 might sit for quite some time.

I've finished whole BG trilogy with solo mage (no NPC's). Be sure you download patches BEFORE you start Fallout1 or 2 because otherwise you'll lose save files.

And I am downoading Civ3 patch right now. Curious to see how this game looks like.

	31-01-2002 08:34									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

both fallout and fallout 2 were of the latest version straight out of the jewel case, i checked for patches just after installing them

and a solo mage... but a solo fighter would be more impressive

	31-01-2002 19:43									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Civ III has some nice things, (slightly better AI, resources) but it also has some crappy things (rampant corruption). It became boring quite quickly. I'll reserve judgement until MP is available. Simply because that's the only thing that is of any interest.

RAH

	18-02-2002 00:36									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, another day, another patch, another game?

So does it make Civ3 better? Well, some much demanded features (that should have been there right at the start) are finally there (MP, proper scen support...cough cough )and more things are nailed down. Does this affect the strategy behind the game much? I don't know because haven't bought it yet. So I can't really judge that.
But it seems the gameplay is starting to resemble one long narrow hallway with most side entrances (exploits? loopholes? master tactics/strategies?) boarded shut.


On a positive note, many players now report that the AI really hates them no matter what they do. Glad to see Civ2 and Civ3 have something in common!

	18-02-2002 03:00									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Hey, Cap, are you saying that MP is now available for Civ3? Or did I read that wrong?

	18-02-2002 03:30									#21
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Hey, Cap, are you saying that MP is now available for Civ3? Or did I read that wrong?

Not for the moment


Boy, I need to work on my irony...

	18-02-2002 06:57									#22
	Re: The future of civ multiplaying -the next road?- Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by CapTVK [*]First question: With several Civ2 veterans (still holding out myself )having played Civ3 for a few months now. How's it holding up? It seems Civ3 has a good start but completely bogs down in the end game

Finished a game of Civ3 last week and I really have no desire to play again. I'll probably download the latest patch and try another game, just to justify the expense. The game really leads you in only one direction: Warfare. Not my favorite style of play.

quote: [*]Second question: What are the prospects for Civ3 MP, will the current gameplay make it harder or easier to do a quick/long game?

Civ2 turns took forever in MP. Civ3 turns take forever in SP. Not a good prospect for Civ3 MP.

quote: [*]Third question: Has anyone gone looking for alternatives? I've gone back to playing scenarios and playtesting Freeciv, anyone else?

I've 'rediscovered' Tropico although it lacks the 'it' factor but the building aspect is enjoyable. I'll get the expansion pack as soon as I can find it in a store for the scenarios. I've also started playing SimGolf which, much like Tropico, lacks 'it' but is fun none-the-less.

	26-02-2002 23:25									#23
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I bought Civ3 the day it came out, even bought the damn boxed set, after playing for a few hours I packed it away and haven't got it out yet, saving it for a rainy day in BC(which is like every other day .) I still try to play Civ2 MP 1-2 times a week with a group of friends, but even that has lost its level of excitement. We have changed the rules a bit which made it interesting, but what I would rather have is a whole new designed Civ2 MP, not a Civ3 MP. I think the thing I will enjoy from a future Civ3 MP release is to be able to go to the Zone and find tons of people playing, but for now I can at least finish a large map 3 player games without people wanting to leave to play in a different game When there isonly 1 game on the block people seem to stick with it a bit more, even when losing. Now if only we could find a 4th and 5th player who plays 2x2x king level no barbs and has a decent connection for simul, know any?????

	27-02-2002 08:37									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

i'd play with ya, when my server isn't clogged with users i've got a nice connection speed. my icq is listed if you ever wanna play.

	28-02-2002 02:08									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Definately Kuja it is always good to get more humans playing. I will be out of touch until end of March but then will be back to civ playing so I will give you a hollar!! Our games almost always get to nukes and we play on a big map, but the 3 guys are all super fast players so games go pretty quick. The problem we always run into is reaching the city max limit. Anyone know a way around that?