13-01-2002 22:21									#1
	The Best Science Fiction Series of All-Time Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My list:

1. Farscape. Real science fiction. Interesting characters that are flawed enough to avoid the Curse of Trek---ie, they aren't a bunch of perfect people standing on their perfect bridge congratulating one another on how perfectly they avoid interferring in other people's affairs---but likeable enough to identify with. Farscape also dares to do things no other series has attempted-----has any other series ever had the audacity to drive their main character insane for a full season? The episodes do get a little too shrill at times, what with two or three raving madmen running around Moya trying to kill one another(and those are just the recurring characters!)----but they are never boring.

2. ST:TNG. Okay, the first season was a little strange, and the last two seasons were repetitive and dull. But there is no arguing with episodes like The Best of Both Worlds, Yesterday's Enterprise or Ship in a Bottle.

3. Mystery Science Theatre 3000. Took absolute garbage and turned it into some of the most entertaining science fiction television ever made. Funnier overall than Red Dwarf. Despite the fact that it is pure comedy, it nonetheless deals with science fiction issues-----through gentle sarcasm and affectionate ribbing.

4. ST: TOS

5. Babylon 5. Some of the greatest moments in science fiction, marred by highly uneven acting, writing, plot and character development. Every moment of riveting high drama is matched by some moment of bathos----one of JMS's "humorous" moments, or a deadly serious "character building" story. A great opportunity that never quite gelled.

Last edited by Khan Singh on 13-01-2002 at 22:28

	13-01-2002 22:42									#2
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MST3k is good, but the others.
Wheres X-files (the originals were awesome)

When I was a kid I watched the minseries V (that was really cool cause' I was like 10 or so)

What about Robotech (ok, its a cartoon, but it was the first cartoon that I ever saw that people actually died, not like GIJOE or anything where everybody parachuted out of their planes when they got shot down.)

And Starblazers
"were off to save the world.... our starblazers"
that was a killer cartoon.

Many many more, I just cant remember any of them

	13-01-2002 23:04									#3
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Farscape is definately one of the best SF series. Quality writing, acting, and decent special effects.

The more I look back, the more I realize that Star Trek: TNG was an exceedingly formulaic series. Either it was about a character realizing that the world was wrong and struggling to get his psyche back to reality or it was some dilema that could only be solved by fixing the flibberty-do machine. When it wasn't one of these two, then it required pulling a deus ex machina out of their butt. Despite that, there were some quality episodes, the Borg Invasion probably being the best (though still marred by the deus ex machina).

For its time, Star Trek: TOS was quite good, but often I find the series unwatchable these days.

Dr. Who, cheesy stories, over the top acting, but lots of fun. Still on of my all time favorites.

I loved Bab 5, but all of Kahn Singh's critiques are correct. Still, they had some of the creepiest moments in SF. Also, they knew how to create a story arc.

The original Flash Gordan. Come on, you know I'm right.

Since CB2034 brought in anime, I'm gonna have to bring in Coyboy Bebop which is just fantastic. Distopic future, well written, good voice actors (in English), excellent art, deeply flawed characters.

Robotech A very interesting story, and decent English voice actors. More or less based on the orginal Japanese series.

Serial Experiement: Lain, what is humanity in the electronic world? Possibly one of the best SF series period.

	13-01-2002 23:48									#4
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Hey is this only for TV series?

If not then I nominate:

1. Star Wars.

C'mon remember that awesome feeling when the Star Destroyer soared over your head & Lando piloting the Falcon into the second Death Star?
And despite the criticism Episode 1 has had roughly the same effect upon the generation now 5-10 as Episode 4-6 did on my own.

2. The Foundation series by Azimov.

Impressive space opera, even after nearly half a century since publication. Combine this with the later books written by Asimov and the even more recent titles by various other authors and it makes compelling reading.

3. The Uplift series by David Brin.

Another great space opera with an interesting take on Enviromentalism.

	14-01-2002 00:28									#5
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I like Stargate personally.

	14-01-2002 00:34									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I like Stargate personally.

I liked that show, but:

1) They killed off all the likable aliens.

2) How come they haven't usen stolen alien tech to equip themselves with something better than a machine gun?

	14-01-2002 01:33									#7
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When a sci-fi programme has a gay character in it, I'll vote.

	14-01-2002 01:35									#8
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quote: Originally posted by el freako 2. The Foundation series by Asimov. Impressive space opera, even after nearly half a century since publication. Combine this with the later books written by Asimov and the even more recent titles by various other authors and it

When I first read it, it was somewhat amazing that the books had been written in the fifties.

Do not forget the Empire and Robot series.

Nor must one not forget the Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy series, whether it is the books or the radio shows.

There are many nominees here that I like, but the only TV-series that I have had the opportunity to completely view, thanks to the complete moronity of local television broadcasters, is Babylon 5.
When I read the first post, my first thought was: "WTF is 'Farscape'?"

	14-01-2002 01:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon When a sci-fi programme has a gay character in it, I'll vote.

Wesley Crusher, from The Next Generation.
That actor actually has a website up here where he posts regularly: www.wilwheaton.net

	14-01-2002 01:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon When a sci-fi programme has a gay character in it, I'll vote.

Bab 5 had a gay relatioship between one of the telepaths and the main female human character.

	14-01-2002 01:42									#11
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I said gay, not lesbian

We all know that's just so nerds can get their rocks off

	14-01-2002 01:58									#12
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If you want gay characters, go watch a musical.

Inserting gays, lesbians, people with drinking problems, or people with problems getting dates is exactly the sort of soap opera mentality that ruins fiction. Science fiction should deal with larger issues than the personal problems of its poorly acted characters. If it doesn't then it is just a soap opera that happens to be set in the future.

The character's personal problems should only come into the story if they in some way interact with the science fiction problem and help to resolve the science fiction plotline.

	14-01-2002 02:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Khan Singh Inserting gays, lesbians, people with drinking problems, or people with problems getting dates is exactly the sort of soap opera mentality that ruins fiction. Science fiction should deal with larger issues than the personal problems of its poorly acted characters. If it doesn't then it is just a soap opera that happens to be set in the future. The character's personal problems should only come into the story if they in some way interact with the science fiction problem and help to resolve the science fiction plotline.

It's interesting how you say gays should not be included in the shows, but you've made no mention of straights.

Are you homophobic?

	14-01-2002 02:03									#14
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How the hell did KAhn Singh work that one out? Sci-fi characters have boyfriends and girlfriends all the time! Why can't a couple be gay, it doenst have to be a storyline in itself!

	14-01-2002 02:08									#15
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I stated that inserting gay characters simply because they are gay is soap opera, not science fiction.

Can you read?

	14-01-2002 02:10									#16
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Yes, I can read.
Can you write?

Here's what you said:

quote: If you want gay characters, go watch a musical. Inserting gays, lesbians, people with drinking problems, or people with problems getting dates is exactly the sort of soap opera mentality that ruins fiction.

You specifically said inserting any character that is gay turns it into a soap opera and ruins that fiction.

	14-01-2002 02:16									#17
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon When a sci-fi programme has a gay character in it, I'll vote.

Why is that relevant? Does the fact that a show has straight characters turn you away from it?

	14-01-2002 02:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why is that relevant? Does the fact that a show has straight characters turn you away from it?

Part of scifi, for many people, is the escapism is provides. Being able to relate to characters is somewhat critical in that.

	14-01-2002 02:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Part of scifi, for many people, is the escapism is provides.

And the fact that a fictional character happens to be straight detracts from that part of the show in what way? Just to give an example, I happen to like Buffy, The Vampire Slayer & Spin City just fine.

	14-01-2002 02:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc And the fact that a fictional character happens to be straight detracts from that part of the show in what way? Just to give an example, I happen to like Buffy, The Vampire Slayer & Spin City just fine.

Well, many gay people have troubles relating to straight people.
So if you're gay, having a show full of straight people is decidedly harder to find people to relate to in it.

	14-01-2002 02:25									#21
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Lol, I have nothing against straight people! Having straight people doesn't detract from it, I just noticed that sci-fi is a genre where gay people don't seem to exist too much.

	14-01-2002 02:26									#22
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What are you talking about, red_jon?
Straight people are evil heretics, against God's way. They're disgusting, mixing sexes like that. It's not pure, I tell you!

	14-01-2002 02:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon I just noticed that sci-fi is a genre where gay people don't seem to exist too much.

Gay characters don't "exist too much" in any genre. Why single only one out for condemnation?

Asher:

	14-01-2002 02:36									#24
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The key word is "insert".

In Babylon 5, for instance, JMS (the creator) "inserted" a pat character flaw into each of his main characters. Every so often, he would write a lame story about Garibaldi's drinking, the Doctor's stim addiction, or Ivanova's ambivalence about her father. It had nothing to do the overall story, the Shadows or the creeping corruption of the Earth's government. It was just a little bit of soap opera thrown in to take up time.

Does that mean that such issues can't be dealt with in SF? Of course not. There is a good ST:TNG episode which had Ryker fall in love with a semi-androgynous alien. This episode was clearly about gay intolerance, and was very well done. That's science fiction. Making the captain of your space ship gay is not. That's just pandering.

Your readiness to criticize intolerance seems a little one-sided. Red john said that he wouldn't even vote for a good science fiction series unless it had a gay character in it. His clear implication is that if a show doesn't have an openly gay character in it, then it cannot possibly be good. He even goes so far as to exclude lesbians from the list of people who he can tolerate watching. How come you don't criticize him? He gets a free pass because he happens to like gays?

	14-01-2002 02:37									#25
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I reckon a lot of the Klingons might be gay. The military forces have sort of a history of supressed homoerotic feelings, and I reckon that if you have a whole warrior culture...

Last edited by lightblue on 14-01-2002 at 04:26

	14-01-2002 02:40									#26
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LOL @ Asher and Lightblue.

	14-01-2002 02:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Khan Singh Your readiness to criticize intolerance seems a little one-sided. Red john said that he wouldn't even vote for a good science fiction series unless it had a gay character in it. His clear implication is that if a show doesn't have an openly gay character in it, then it cannot possibly be good. He even goes so far as to exclude lesbians from the list of people who he can tolerate watching. How come you don't criticize him? He gets a free pass because he happens to like gays?

red_jon's comment was there's not enough gay people in modern sci-fi, which is true for shows in general these days.

The problem here, Khan, is you equate homosexuality to a character flaw. You think it's distracting to have a gay character, and go on to compare this to a drinking problem. That's why I am so ready to criticize.

Most sci-fi shows have heterosexual relationships form in some way or another, but suddenly if it's homosexual it's a distraction and a character flaw.

	14-01-2002 02:41									#28
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Stargate, it's the only sci-fi show I like, the others bore me.

	14-01-2002 02:47									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I like Stargate personally.

Same here. Much better than poncey old Star Trek.

	14-01-2002 02:49									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson Same here. Much better than poncey old Star Trek.

Bah!

I do like the show. I just don't agree with you on that point.