14-01-2002 04:22									#1
	What can ANY FUTURE STRATEGY GAME learn from CivIII? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

(Original Title: 'What can MOO3 learn from CivIII?' led to a misunderstanding about the intention of this thread.)

1. Atmosphere matters. Donīt include anything awful (CivIII advisors and leader faces).

2. Game balance is everything. No Race/Unit/Tech/Government should be all powerful/totally useless.

3. More is better. There canīt be something like 'too many' different Units/Buildings/Techs/You name it. The game can still be balanced, if you make the differences incremental instead of extreme. Pleeease take a look at Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds. Countless everything, brilliantly balanced, wonderful atmosphere. That game has everything CivIII has not.

	14-01-2002 04:31									#2
	Put an end to popups!

There should be no late game tedium.

	14-01-2002 06:58									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I would agree with all 3 points and add 1 more - Don't promise anything specific or else people will take it personally.

	14-01-2002 07:55									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If you donīt keep the promise, that is.

	14-01-2002 09:02									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

The most important thing that can be learned is this. Don't let your efforts to make a game challenging get in the way of the player's fun.

The words we hear from those who are critical of the game are frustration, tedium, unrealistic and unfair. To paraphase the famous hambuger commercial.. "Where's the fun?"

I applaud many of the changes that Firaxis made in this version of Civ, but somewhere along the way someone should have refocused the design team on the importance of letting the player frolick.

I could list manyof the features or elements that people find so aggravating. But it has been done to death. Firaxis is not going to address them, instead, with the patch they continued to eliminate almost every alternate strategy the player could use (and find fun) to play the game. Right now, it looks like they will remove the pop rush military strategy so that there will be only the one prescribed way to play the game.

This is not fun and its a shame. I hope game developers everywhere will consider Civ3 as an example of how not to design a game.

	14-01-2002 16:44									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

it should be modelled completely according to yin's suggestions. he is, of course, always right.....

	14-01-2002 16:57									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

From Civ3? People want modding, MP and scenario editors.

	15-01-2002 05:20									#8
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso it should be modelled completely according to yin's suggestions. he is, of course, always right....

Kassandra may not have been popular, but right she was.

	15-01-2002 13:12									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

that was kasandra, right?

	15-01-2002 18:14									#10
	Remove this text

quote: that was kasandra, right?

Come on LaRusso. You can debate at a higher level than that!

	15-01-2002 19:21									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In the course of the game, retain, amplify, and multiply interesting decisions. Consolidate, ameliorate, and if possible, eschew mundane ones.

	15-01-2002 20:12									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian In the course of the game, retain, amplify, and multiply interesting decisions. Consolidate, ameliorate, and if possible, eschew mundane ones.

Clear as a bell!

	15-01-2002 21:43									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Don't be afraid to incorporate good ideas that other games innovated first (CTP stacked move and/or PW as examples).

Playtest the game thoroughly, especially in a public beta type atmosphere (the reason Starcraft was so good, IMO).

Never plan the design cycle to end "in time for a pre-Christmas release." Ever. Period.

	15-01-2002 22:42									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The correst answer is: PLAY TESTING!

Have people (preferably LOTS of people) who didn't design the game and who have no connection with the company spend time actually playing the game, noting what works and what doesn't, and reporting what they find.

And then act on those findings.

This would have dealt with at least 90% of the complaints w/CivIII.

	16-01-2002 00:11									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Heliodorus Never plan the design cycle to end "in time for a pre-Christmas release." Ever. Period.

BINGO!!!

	16-01-2002 01:55									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso that was kasandra, right?

In German, her name is spelled 'KASSANDRA'. Donīt know about Greek, however. Ask Marcos.

	16-01-2002 02:03									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I always thought the addition of Corporations would alleviate late-game tedium, especially in a game like Civ III, where conquering the world is such a chore. Don't bother! Just set up corporations in foreign cities to divert some of their gold. ^_^ It's a way to expand even after the entire world has been covered in cities.

But oh well. Corporations were too "radical" to include, I guess. Instead of adding features, Civ III got rid of stuff.

Anyway, yeah, More Is Better! More techs, more city improvements, more tile improvements, more wonders, more units, more citizen types, more features, more luxuries, and more customizability.

	16-01-2002 03:43									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: In the course of the game, retain, amplify, and multiply interesting decisions. Consolidate, ameliorate, and if possible, eschew mundane ones.

That is like EXACTLY what I argued in my "Late Game Tedium - Discussion and Solutions" thread!

I'd sue for copyright, but I'm afraid any lawyer I hired would be intimidated by your diction... thats twice in one day you've said exactly what I want to say.

Anyway I really think that is it: maximize fun strategic decisions, minimize boring busywork decisions.

I do really like Heliodorus's Christmas comment though...

	16-01-2002 04:12									#19
	I Agree Put an end to popups!

I thnk the three most important lessons are:

MOdding ability- allow the player to modify some or all rules to fit their wishes. This is different from:

Choices: Give players the ability to choose distinct paths, based on thier preferences. The choices need not be infinite but they need to be substantial

Playtesting: I want MOO3, but I prefer to wait 3 more months than to get a bad title out of the box. For games in general then, wait till you think you have the game balance pretty good, and no obvious bugs, before you release it.