15-01-2002 21:54									#1
	I was so looking forward to CIV 3... now back to CTP2 Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I was so looking forward to CIV 3... and have played it thoroughly over the last 3 months... i cannot say that I have enjoyed it thoroughly however!

The biggest frustration is the lack of unit stacking... both for
enhanced combat group creation and micro-management of workers.

CTP2 has this.

The speed performance of CIV 3 is ludicrous as well (CTP2 doesn't take anywhere near as long as CIV 3)

I only hope that they observe these forums when/if they develop CIV 4.

Compared to CTP2, CIV 3 is very dissapointing given the scope, promise and opportunity of what CIV III could have been.

In the meantime I no longer play CIV 3 and have gone back to CTP2. But I will monitor this forum with enthusiastic hope that a new patch, upgrade or CIV IV emerges that will reignite my enjoyment for CIV.

	16-01-2002 21:23									#2
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I, too, have bounced back and forth between CTP and Civ3. CTP 2 is outstanding, provided that you use the mods that are posted in the CTP 2 files.

I pledge allegience to Hexagonia!!!

	16-01-2002 21:27									#3
	How many other people went back to CtP2? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have as well went back to CtP2. I miss the stealth units and Public Works. Many more different units as well and stacking. Yes you have to play with the mods but Civ3 needs to be modded as well.

I still play Civ3 and enjoy the game but it is missing something for me to be coming back to it.

Davor

	16-01-2002 21:42									#4
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CTP2 does have some neat stuff like PW, but it lacks one major feature, and AI.

You have to admit that civ3 does have a kickass AI.

CTP2 does not even have an AI unless you install the mods. In CTP2, the AI never goes to war with, offers a diplomatic proposal like 3 times in the entire game, and never uses its military units!

	16-01-2002 21:51									#5
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Agreed. Soren did a fabulous job with the AI, particularly given the obvious budgetary and time constraints.

	16-01-2002 22:43									#6
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I really miss the slavers. Boy, did they make folks mad on multiplayer!

	16-01-2002 22:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Brutus66 I really miss the slavers. Boy, did they make folks mad on multiplayer!

Yeah! Kind of the equivalent of the monks on AoE 2! They annoy me enough when the computer uses them let alone when I am playing a human who can use taunts and laugh at me. I can never see where the monks are and all I can here is ahhhhh ahhh ahhh didilydododooo ARGH! Another man gone!!!

NOTE: People who don't play AoE 2 may not understand the noises...people who do play it will be lucky if they do

	16-01-2002 23:03									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat CTP2 does not even have an AI unless you install the mods.

It has an A though

The I is in the works.

	16-01-2002 23:11									#9
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I know what you are talking about- those monks...

Another cool thing about the slaver was if you attacked with him in the stack, you took the enemy unit as a slave in the nearest city. That seemed so historically real.

I know that the idea would be controversial, but an accurate trading model of the ancient age would have to include humans as a commodity. Heck, the slave trade exists today in some parts of the world. Unfortunate, but true.

	17-01-2002 00:47									#10
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Yes Civ3 is a dissapointment given all the advances in other games since Civ1 and 2. But going back to CTP...please...

I know graphics are a very small part of a strategy game but I can't look at a CTP screen without thinking how cheesey (oh my God I said cheesey) it is in comparison.

The armies of up to twelve units are handy and more realistic, but I find taking a city in one turn - with one battle actually - just a little boring.

Probably the worst thing about CTP is that it doesn't really feel like the "AI" is an actual opponent. SMAC was far and away the best for this: Deidre, Yang, Miriam...yada yada... felt like real people that you had a real relationship with. And getting them to swear a Pact of Brotherhood to serve you was even more satisfying than destroying them.

They'll get Civ3 right.

	17-01-2002 00:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat CTP2 does have some neat stuff like PW, but it lacks one major feature, and AI. You have to admit that civ3 does have a kickass AI. CTP2 does not even have an AI unless you install the mods. In CTP2, the AI never goes to war with, offers a diplomatic proposal like 3 times in the entire game, and never uses its military units!

The mods really do improve the AI and remember that in CTP2 you always have the option of playing a real, living, breathing human. Which is always superior to any AI no matter how good...

	17-01-2002 01:00									#12
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I honestly think that CTP2 is a better thought out and organized game then Civ3. That said neither of them are my idea of the perfect game. It's to bad Civ3 doesn't use slic because a "perfect" version of civ would combine CTP2's ease of use, realistic combat, and better tech tree/governemnts/units with Civ3's culture rating, strategic resources, and graphics.
If Civ3 had slic we could import many of our favorite features from CTP2 and we'd score a coup d'estate for the mod community.

	17-01-2002 01:47									#13
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CTP2 was a good game for its time. It had multiplayer right out of the box- you didn't have to wait for an expansion pack or patch. The interface was ok- at least it announced events in an easy to see place, and the setting up stuff in the build que was a breeze. It was easy to tell when cities were on the verge of revolting, too.

The bad side of the story was that it had chronic problems in multiplayer- ever get the resynchronization error? And Activision, though it continued to sell the game and make money, dropped support for it. What the heck was up with that?

Say what you might about Sid and his henchmen, but I don't feel that they are going to just leave us in the lurch. It seems to me that they fixed a lot of problems in the last patch (which was released only about two months after the game came out). Given time, we might have something that will satisfy most of us. I think if they just scaled down the corruption, a lot of the grumbling would quiet down (the corruption in the game, not at Firaxis/Infrogrames). Most of us can live with the other things that irritate us, but the corruption level seems to be a big issue with most folks.

	17-01-2002 01:52									#14
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BTW- my personal beef is the pollution. Iam sick of running around cleaning up tiles and wasting time building stuff like recycling center when I want to be building tanks. I remember in CTP, pollution was easy to turn off. I wish I could do so in Civ3.
I can't help but feel that pollution has been turned up a notch since Civ2, and all these "green" city improvements are somebody's political message to us.

	17-01-2002 03:10									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Carver I know graphics are a very small part of a strategy game but I can't look at a CTP screen without thinking how cheesey (oh my God I said cheesey) it is in comparison.

The CtP graphics are cheesy? Have you seen this person?

	17-01-2002 04:18									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I honestly think that CTP2 is a better thought out and organized game then Civ3. That said neither of them are my idea of the perfect game. It's to bad Civ3 doesn't use slic because a "perfect" version of civ would combine CTP2's ease of use, realistic combat, and better tech tree/governemnts/units with Civ3's culture rating, strategic resources, and graphics. If Civ3 had slic we could import many of our favorite features from CTP2 and we'd score a coup d'estate for the mod community.

Ordin... You're right on the money!

	17-01-2002 10:10									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It has turned out to be a disapointment but not a total waste. It did rekindle my interest in SMAC which is a far better game. I haven't tried CTP2 due to a rotten experience with CTP1.

One thing that Sid should do is hire some politically conservative designers to work with him. In Civ and SMAC the pre-occupation with pollution, corruption and green economics is ridiculous. I suspect he is a pinko.

	17-01-2002 10:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat The CtP graphics are cheesy? Have you seen this person?

That's f***ing hilarious!!

And, sadly, very much true...

	17-01-2002 15:44									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat The CtP graphics are cheesy? Have you seen this person?

The science advisor is my friend. Don't make fun of him. You're making me sad

	17-01-2002 16:50									#20
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LOL @ CTP2

I have played it MP and what I found was that I was not getting the PW I should get (after a resync I suddenly had about 2000PW (which then faded away again because I LOST PW even though I did not do anything)).
CTP is **** compared to Civ3. Sure stacking is fine but oh well Civ3 has so many better components like culture or resources. The resource thing alone is just too cool.

It is really annoying me when people act as if Civ3 would be the worst game in the world. And it annoys me even more when there come someone who says the CtP Series is better. I mean come on.

I mean how was CtP supported from Activision? Hello!!! One patch and there you go.

I bet there are comming more patches from Firaxis. I even hope they may do a Blizzard here!

ata

	17-01-2002 17:27									#21
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Some people are coming modded <em>CtP 2</em> with <em>Civ 3</em> which is completely unfair. Yes, <em>Civ 3</em> doesn't have a script language, but it does have some neat concepts such as resources and culture.

	17-01-2002 19:50									#22
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Why is it unfair to compare Civ3 with modded CtP2? Modded CtP2 is so very different from CtP2 it cannot be regarded the same game anymore: it's a practically sequel and and good one at that. Comparing unmodded CtP2 with Civ3 would be unfair because CtP2 is really a public beta (the designers simply weren't allowed to finish the game by management) while Civ3 is a finished product. Besides, I'd be more than happy to compare modded CtP2 with modded Civ3 except that you can't mod Civ3...

But even when you compare the unmodded games with each other CtP2 wins hands down IMHO: Stacking, PW, SLIC, MAD, Siege Warfare, Unconvential Warfare, actual Future Techs&Units, Multiplayer (including PBEM and Hotseat), Scenarios, etc, etc, etc. Okay, it's a bit buggy (although it works fine on my system, even without any kind of patch) but all Civ3 has to offer is Culture and Resources (oh yeah, Unique Units too but that's actually a bad thing IMHO, very uncivvish...), it makes few other real improvements compared to Civ2 (and CtP2 modmakers are already in the process of copying and even improving upon the best features of Civ3). Was it not Jeffrey Morris who called Civ3 a (and I quote) "conservative sequel"? CtP2 OTOH redefines the genre.

	17-01-2002 20:45									#23
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All my science advisor does is ***** about not having enough money allocated to science. That's because I have to save my resources for the Civ3 expansion! You'll get my money one way or another, Sid!

A big thanks to the mod making community for CTP2. I preordered the game and was soooooooo disappointed when I played it. The AI was brutal! I remember when I was first playing CTP and the computer was just hammering me with war walkers and I begged for mercy and got none. While in CTP2, when I was at war with the computer, all it would do is send units back and forth between cities and never attack. Thank God for the modding community.

Yes, I love the slaver! Easiest way to build a huge civ right out of the gate!

Thanks also to all who keep the CTP2 boards active!

	17-01-2002 22:44									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Some people are coming modded <em>CtP 2</em> with <em>Civ 3</em> which is completely unfair. Yes, <em>Civ 3</em> doesn't have a script language, but it does have some neat concepts such as resources and culture.

Whereas CtP2 has a scripting language, so could (almost probably will) have those features. Eventually. Possibly in about the same timescale that Civ3 gets a MP and scenario editor X-pack

	18-01-2002 04:42									#25
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I'm still praying that some day Firaxis will wake up and realize there are a lot of good ideas/features in CTP2 that they should include in Civ3 gold or the expansion pack. A well thought out combat system, a flexible multiplayer set up, and a fully functioning scripting language are just a few of the things Firaxis should copy.

	18-01-2002 14:51									#26
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So Firaxis made the one of the big mistakes that can game developers do: Not to look on other games of the same genre. Even the poor Civ clone The Raise And Rhule Of Acient Empres had to offer some good ideas, like stack combat, world wonders on the map, units had to eat the food that grows on the land on that they are (meaning they will starve in the desert) and some kind of leader loyality: If you conquered a city you had to put a huge garrison into the to make the citiziens happy with you first. Otherwise this city would revolt and return to its old leader.

That was the stuff that this game offers, but there was also to much stuff that annoyed you.

-Martin