15-01-2002 22:58									#1
	Pacts are Cool! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've always been against Pacts because they get you into unwanted wars but I've found that pactmates like to give you plenty of nice needlejets - they can build them so quickly on transcend so you can actually use the AI's advantage to your own.

	15-01-2002 23:29									#2
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Your pactmates don't have to drag you into wars. If they ask you to join them in battle you can usually say no and then ask whomever started the war to end it. Now and then you will lose the pact, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will go to war with you.

So I see pacts as having very little downside and a whole lot of upside. And pacts with surrendered submissives are the best kind.

The extra trade is most important of all. The other positives are the extra freedom for your units (for fighting wars or exploring and pod-popping), free units, greater chance of traded tech or even free tech, support in elections, an available source of energy credits, infiltration status, a faction that will likely go to war for you if you are attacked...

If you are getting gifted a whole pile of obsolete units, consider melting them down and building an SP with them. Upgrading them all is often expensive in terms of ecs and support costs.

	15-01-2002 23:31									#3
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or loads of choppers, hovertanks and stuff

i like pacts for making lot of money

btw, the wars can seized by diplomacy ("hey x, make peace with my friend/pact brother..."

another cool pact is the submissive one: "give up autonomy or be destroyed"
usually those 'subordinates' give you money, military equipment, techs by request

	16-01-2002 00:11									#4
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Human Pactmates are cool in that you can usually learn interesting approaches by looking at their bases and otherwise watching what they are doing. You or they may also notice each others' oversights and reduce mistakes a little. Of course, the tech sharing is better planned (hopefully) and more predictable as well.

AI pactmates IMhO, are more frustrating than they are worthwhile. Their gifts of units are sometimes useful and/or needed, but at least as often they are unbalancing to your mineral/production setup and are usually absolute shinola, military-quality-wise. While they save you some hassles with the other AI's if they are located in between, the AI almost never operates its bases anywhere as well as a human can and so they (and therefore also you) don't get much good stuff out of it; they can even do annoying things like move through your picket ships and plant bases in the middle of sea tiles that were part of your own bases' production area. Most of the time I prefer keeping any captured AI bases I might get, paying the price in initial investments to get it going and in increased drones of various types and the ever popular additional MM.

However, just as the AI pactmates are generally far less beneficial than a Human pactmate, they are also far less capable of nailing you with a deadly surprise betrayal .

	16-01-2002 00:14									#5
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I don't pact unless I need someone's bases to jump to a faction too far away for me to harass, or if someone swears a pact to serve, or in special cases where the social choices align (like university and the consciousness). Seems like if I pact right away they are friends only until you choose a different social engineering choice or are bigger than you, and then their selling the map of your territory to everybody on the planet!

Most times I don't even sign a treaty upon first contact. Often the faction will then say something like, "If you sign, Ill give you 250 credits."

	16-01-2002 00:49									#6
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I sometimes get energy credits for treaties, and always for pacts upon surrender. But not for regular pacts, unless I have to fight on my new pactmate's behalf right away. This could be because I almost always leap into a pact unless the faction is already at war with one of my friends.

Mr. D., it is my belief that the computer knows all. So if you are playing an SP game, the AI's play is indistinguishable if they have your map and infiltration or if they don't. OTOH, in MP the maps and infiltration are key.

So in SP games, forget about hiding in the fungus or preventing the AI from infiltrating you or selling your maps. It is all a charade. The AI will always be able to target that underdefended base or that exploring unit out in the open.

	16-01-2002 01:23									#7
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quote: It is all a charade

but still one of the most challenging and intelligent games

	16-01-2002 02:37									#8
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One reason to NOT pact early on is to prevent that faction from moving through your territory and establishing bases in areas they normally wouldn't be able to reach.

	16-01-2002 03:00									#9
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Submissives are in fact the best thing since sliced bread. In fact it many times is the sole reason why I stray from my normal builder routine into an impact rover rush mode.

Best use of these unfortunates is as follows:

Begin conquering. DO NOT Use Attrocities of course. Assume SE choice favorable to victim. (You'll typically know that its time to switch to a favorable SE when he calls you up the first time) When victim calls you up to ask for surrender turn him down. Continue denial until he submits.

When he submits gift back to victim all bases taken with exception of those with SP's you wish to keep. Ensure he has any many bases as you do even if this means future conquested bases are gifted to him. By allowing him to have as many bases as you, you will maximize your trade energy benefit to both yourself and your new vassal.

Gift him all your technology. Keep tabs on his discoveries and call him up every time he discovers a new tech. He'll gift to you as tribute. Periodically gift him you whole bag of techs to refresh his technology bag so that he is working on latest and greatest discoveries and additionally this will more often than not ensure that he is happy and loyal to you (in fact with the exception of Yang and Lal I can't remember the AI ever turning on me but of course I run a pretty clean game with minimal attrocities Nerve gassing Aliens included). At Transcend difficulty this has a dramatic impact on your ability to out tech everyone.

Regards

Og

	16-01-2002 03:04									#10
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well if you want to be devious, you could pact with the AI, wait for them to spend a few turns trudging across your lands and just when they are hitting the edge, RENOUNCE the pact.

Benefits are that the AI (who I almost always think of as a future enemy) has wasted time and resources moving the CP across your lands --- AND you get the benefit of pact information and trade for the duration of the pact. If they never head for the place you want well then maintain the pact for as long as possible.

	16-01-2002 04:20									#11
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I've usually seen pacts as beneficial.

Since most of the time I play as Yang, I usually have at least two other factions against me. I use my pact-brother as a "buffer", making them take some of the brunt of invasion while I muster my glorious Hive armada.

Also, hypothetically speaking, if I start doing really bad and I start losing, my pact-brother usually gives me some units until I can stave off the Vendetta's offensive.

	16-01-2002 10:52									#12
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scrap those free units inside the city where you are building secret projects. free minerals for everbody.