16-01-2002 04:21									#1
	Cradle vs Apolyton Full PM-box? Change here!

Can someone briefly compare and contrast the two most popular mods for me?

In a nutshell, what's the difference?

I've played CTPII un-modded (once), and with Apolyton so far.

	16-01-2002 06:21									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, for one thing, there's a third 'big' mod to consider: the MedMod. The next thing to realize is the age of the mods: Apolyton hasn't been changed in six months or so, so it's really getting old and obsolete. The MedMod had it's last update maybe one or two months ago, while Cradle is still continuously being improved. So in this sense Cradle is the best mod.

Onto what the mods actually change about the game: Apolyton basically only fixes bugs, it doesn't really add new things. A big improvement but IMHO there's so much more that can be done with this game. That's where Cradle and MedMod come in. The MedMod fixes the same bugs but also does a complete overhaul of the tech tree, the units, the terrain, etc and it makes many changes to other things that affect game balance and the way the game plays. Cradle does the same as the MedMod, except that it (contrary to the MedMod) doesn't cover all the ages but really fleshes out the pre-Medieval ages instead (and does this more elaborately than the MedMod), leaving the post-Medieval ages largely identical to the original game. In this respect Cradle starts out extremely strong in the beginning but gets weaker as the game progresses, while the MedMod is solid throughout. All-in-all, I personally find the MedMod the best, but if you are like playing in the Ancient Age, you will probably prefer Cradle. However, many of the choices Wes made for the MedMod are different from Dave's choices (for Cradle) and both versions work out very well so in this respect you get the best results (i.e. the most variety) by playing both mods: half your games with MedMod, half your games with Cradle.

Then there are things like Diplomacy, AI, new SLIC features. In this area Apolyton doesn't do particularly much: it fixes bugs, improves the AI a bit (but not all that much) and (what *is* a major change) makes great improvements to diplomacy. The MedMod once again goes a step further: it improves the AI very much (although the further you get in the game, the weaker the AI), makes the same diplomacy changes as the Apolyton Pack (maybe some extra improvements but not much) and adds a bunch of extra SLIC features (i.e. totally new features that weren't in the original game: Elite Units, Garrison Code, Piracy, Personality Switching, etc, see the readmes for details). Cradle goes even further with this: the AI is even better than in MedMod (and the game is overall much harder, even without the extra hard AI) and it stays fairly strong until fairly late in the game (if you survive that long). The diplomacy is not very different from MedMod and Apolyton but Cradle does add tons of SLIC code, with features such as the Upgrade Code, Wonder Units, Natural Disasters, City Capture Options, etc, etc (again, see the readmes for details). In this respect Cradle wins hands down. Once again, many of the MedMod choices (esp. concerning SLIC features) are different from Cradle but still very interesting. Playing both mods instead of choosing just one would give you more variety, which is always a good thing.

Finally, one point I want to mention that doesn't get mentioned often around here but which IMHO is still very important: polishing. Apolyton doesn't add all that much to the original game: the main change is in the diplomacy. But what is *does* do is polish the original up: fix the most glaring errors and make minor improvements in many areas. Small changes, but they make a world of difference. CtP2 plus Apolyton Pack is really CtP2 as it should have been out of the box (and what it would have been had the designers at Activision had more time). MedMod, although in terms of AI and extra features inferior to Cradle, has one major advantage: it's very polished. Once installed everything works very nice and fluently, there is little maintenance involved and details like the GL, the tech tree, the graphics, the overall atmosphere, etc, everythings looks and feels very smooth and finished. Just click&play...

Cradle, at least in my view, feels more like a construction kit (although it is perfectly playable as it is), or a model plane that has been built but not yet been painted and all the small ornaments are still missing. Examples: the GL entries for the new items that Cradle adds (or at least the history sections of them) are largely missing, there are too many buildings (so if you want to be able to continue to play until after the modern age without problems you'll have to adapt buildings.txt first), some of the graphics don't quite fit in with the rest as well as others, you have at least half a dozen different versions of Cradle to choose from with all different properties (a version with extra hard AI, a version with AIs being friendlier towards each other, a seafarers version, etc), etc, etc. Basically this is not a bad thing. Much of this was even done delibarately by Dave to allow you to tinker with the files yourself and find your own balance, your own combination of options that you like best (and the background and original goal of Cradle also partially explain this: it was supposed to be a platform for ancient age scenarios, not necessarily a new MedMod). However, sometimes you just want to play and not be bothered with any of that; you don't want to continuously be modding the game, you just want to 'experience' it as well. In this respect I find the MedMod superior, that little finishing touch that it adds. The difference is in those tiny little things but they contribute a lot to the overall 'atmosphere' and 'feeling' of the game. Of course, this is by it's very nature a very personal thing and others may well disagree with me but this is how I feel.

Overall, the Apolyton Pack is only good if you don't like changing the original game (with new units, new techs, etc) but still want the most glaring errors fixed and a (somewhat) better AI and diplomacy. Like I said before, it's really CtP2 as it should have been. If you like more radical changes, you'll want to go for what really should be called CtP3: the MedMod or Cradle - both qualify as sequels, albeit conservative ones (since the basic game engine is still the same). Because Wes has a very reserved attitude towards using SLIC code (which I can perfectly understand, esp. since I know where it comes from) and because it's not being actively developed anymore, the MedMod is really falling behind in terms of extra SLIC features when compared to Cradle. The easier text-file settings and the less aggressive AI also make it less challenging than it could have been. So purely by looking at the technical specs, Cradle is the better mod (if things continue as they are, MedMod soon won't even be in the same league as Cradle anymore). But if you hold the polishing element in high regard (which I personally do), I'd say the MedMod is not all that far behind and Cradle only wins by a nose length. Either way, I would advise you to download all three mods and play a couple of games with all three of them. If it turns out you strongly prefer one mod over the others, you can simply always play that one, otherwise you can do like me and continue to play all three mods (due to lack of time I don't play all that often, but still). The best thing is, regardless of what you choose, it doesn't cost you a dime extra...

Edit: fixed the worst spelling & grammar errors (it was late yesterday )
Edit2: slight refrasing of some parts

Last edited by Locutus on 01-02-2002 at 22:14

	16-01-2002 06:33									#3
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Cradle really extends the game until about 1000 AD.

	16-01-2002 11:17									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Wow, thanks Loc for your analysis of the mods.
I've done Apolyton, so I think I'll try Cradle, then MedMod.
Hopefully I won't crash.
In all the games I've played so far (about 5 I think) I crashed out at the beginning of a turn at some point, and coudn't continue. So I haven't finished a game yet!

	16-01-2002 12:37									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That was the best summary I've see to date. I doubt much more could have been said.

	16-01-2002 20:01									#6
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Locutus,

Excellent wrapup of the Mods...

Please top this thread, and retitle it to reflect MedMod too.

	16-01-2002 22:42									#7
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Loaded Cradle mod last night.

5 things.

1) Where can I find MedMod? I found Cradle mod at hexagonia

2) In ModSwapper, when I click Start, I get a .dll error. Can't remember the exact msg. However, if I just save the settings, then start CTP2 normally it's fine. Anyone know of this .dll problem?

3) Started a game of Cradle mod, noticed that every turn or two one of the AI civs takes a really l-o-n-g turn. Anybody else notice this?

4) Love how Cradle mod starts you out way back in time, 8000BC

5) I started the game at Medium setting. At 4000BC I'm already 2nd from last out of 15 civs. Egad, I suck. Will the AI be better than the default CTP2 if I play at Easy setting?

	16-01-2002 23:27									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by sacjim 1) Where can I find MedMod? I found Cradle mod at hexagonia

http://wes.apolyton.net

quote: 2) In ModSwapper, when I click Start, I get a .dll error. Can't remember the exact msg. However, if I just save the settings, then start CTP2 normally it's fine. Anyone know of this .dll problem?

Don't know, have you installed CtP2 in the default path?

quote: 3) Started a game of Cradle mod, noticed that every turn or two one of the AI civs takes a really l-o-n-g turn. Anybody else notice this?

Yeah, its when the AI walks into a goodie hut and gets a unit, there's a delay caused by inefficient exe coding.

quote: 4) Love how Cradle mod starts you out way back in time, 8000BC

Hence the name - Cradle

quote: 5) I started the game at Medium setting. At 4000BC I'm already 2nd from last out of 15 civs. Egad, I suck. Will the AI be better than the default CTP2 if I play at Easy setting?

Yep.

	17-01-2002 00:12									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Locutus, Please top this thread, and retitle it to reflect MedMod too.

To quote a famous Dutch politician: At your service...

(Thanx Markos)

	17-01-2002 00:33									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How can I modify CTP2 so that the goodie huts don't give units?
(I'm too impatient to wait for the AI turn otherwise)

Also, I never noticed this happening before I installed Cradle.
Does this have something to do with more complicated AI scripting?

	17-01-2002 01:01									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by sacjim How can I modify CTP2 so that the goodie huts don't give units? (I'm too impatient to wait for the AI turn otherwise)

risks.txt (or CRA_risks.txt) has the line:
UNIT_HUT_CHANCE 0.xx
for each difficulty level. Just change the xx to 00 and it will give a 0% chance of getting a unit. Of course you may have to adjust the other chances so they still add up to 1 at the end.

quote: Also, I never noticed this happening before I installed Cradle. Does this have something to do with more complicated AI scripting?

Nobody knows (cue: twilight zone music) Its probably something to do with the extra units available to the game, and the coding in the exe only dealing with the default number or something silly like that.

	17-01-2002 01:21									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

On the CivFanatics forums I outlined a solution for this problem a few weeks ago but unfortunately I haven't had the chance yet to implement it. But hopefully a fix will be available in the not-too-distant future... BTW, the MedMod has the same problem, but I get the impression it's slightly worse on Cradle - heck even the original game has a (very short) delay when a unit comes from a goody hut, it's probably just related to the complexity and size of the tech tree (or the available units, as Ben suggests).

	17-01-2002 02:30									#13
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Locutus:
Great wrapup mate.

Just an author's clarification on Apolyton Pack here:

Apolyton Pack makes CTP2 the game that we as a community envisaged the designers were trying to create, but didn't get the chance to due to the plug being pulled. It took the best ideas of the time (6 - 12 months ago) and combined them along with my best SLIC scripts to fix bugs, enhance existing gameplay and try to boost the AI. I believe that at the time it did meet it's goals. But as Locutus states, it is now starting to show its age as better scripts are now available.

	17-01-2002 02:40									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I guess I can live with the 'goodie hut' delay.
Besides, the farther I get into the game, the less often it should happen, no?
Thanks for all your input.

Jim

	17-01-2002 19:31									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by sacjim I guess I can live with the 'goodie hut' delay. Besides, the farther I get into the game, the less often it should happen, no? Thanks for all your input. Jim

That is correct - the goody huts are cleaned out over time.

One thing I had changed in the last update was to give a 15% chance to get an advance - previously, I had eliminated this freebie. But with the AI infrastructure SLIC working so well, I decided to give this feature back.

This will also give a delay in the Goody Huts, although it does not seem as long as the unit delay.

	18-01-2002 03:11									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

I played 2 games of Civ3.
Then I was missing PW in CTP2, so I went back.
And now I've got Cradle to boot! I'm brand new to Cradle, but so far it's awesome!
I love how you get heroes with some wonders. Just got Hammurabi.
CtP2 rules!
Wonder if I'll ever boot up Civ3 again...

	25-01-2002 04:34									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I check back on Civ3 when ever a new patch comes out and I'm sure I'll test out the expansion pack (if it has MP) when it comes out, but, other then that CTP2 will remain my primary game.

	25-01-2002 05:06									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I check back on Civ3 when ever a new patch comes out and I'm sure I'll test out the expansion pack (if it has MP) when it comes out, but, other then that CTP2 will remain my primary game.

Assimiliation 100% complete...

	08-02-2002 02:07									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have donloaded Modswapper with 3 options. Ultra gigantic map and the way it was intended to be and Medmod. i can play the first two but when I try Medmod, the first time I build a city it crashes and I get the following error message. "GU 158.spr not found in asset tree". Can anyone help please ?

	08-02-2002 02:14									#20
	Got spare money?

Hmmm, I'm not sure what the problem is but if you go to the CTP2 mod discussion forum I'm sure you could find several experts who can help you out.

	08-02-2002 03:40									#21
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Stankarp,
Hmm, looks like something went wrong during installation, are you sure you downloaded and installed all files properly? If so, it would be best if you go to the MedMod thread and ask the question there, then Wes will see it and he (or someone else) will (hopefully) be able to help you...

Back on topic, here's some comments made in the MedMod v2.0 thread that are very relevant to this discussion:

quote: Originally posted by Wes Whitaker Anyway, I read Locutus' modwrap. I think that the Medpack adds more slic stuff than Wouter outlined, like the unit repair code and the destroy-building code which can alter conquest significantly. There is also the personality-switching code which should liven up the game. Unless Dave has further refined the AI settings, I think that the AI performance in the Medpack should be as good or better than anything else out there. I added several slic scripts in the Crusade version which should help the AIs keep up in the second half of the game. The last time I checked, Cradle used slic code to send the AI into an extremely aggressive state the further the game went, which could give the impression of a better AI if you simply gauge this by aggression. What I tried to do was make the AI make better decisions in all aspects. If it could not win a war, why start one? Anyway, most everyone who has played Cradle gives it high marks for gameplay, so who am I to argue? I just hope people have fun with whichever one they choose to spend their time on.

quote: Originally posted by Boney Secondly, about the AI. I am really talking about medmod2? not crusade. I found them too easy to threaten and force them to give me things. You tried to give the AI some logic 'If it could not win a war, why start one?' this made it a little too passive in my opinion. maybe a weak civ could start a war to just take out the human. In multiplayer if I know I am not going to win then I will try to take down someone with me, usually someone who has annoyed me. Also if a border city has been left defenceless or weak the player should be punished. Another point is futile AI attacks, I would like to see the AI sometimes hit a city with 3 12stacks sometime. The AI only ever attacks with one stack per city. How about AI retreating sometime too? If cradle and crusade could somehow join together another interesting hybrid would have been created. Is there any possibility of this happening? One thing I really like is the upgrade of unit feature in cradle. Sometimes I keep playing a game an extra hour or more just to upgrade before I go to bed. It is similar to the feeling I get when I either get a certain needed advance for a unit or for a wonder. Have to say that the ctp2 modders are doing a great job, It makes me become interested in modding too. Scenarios would be good, but let's see how far the AI can be taken first.

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann quote: Unless Dave has further refined the AI settings, I think that the AI performance in the Medpack should be as good or better than anything else out there. I added several slic scripts in the Crusade version which should help the AIs keep up in the second half of the game. The only porblem is that this is not the real problem: In my GoodMod games I saw that the pollution in late games hurts the AI a lot . It can't react on the pollution unhappiness like the human by using entertainers it has to use the global sliders. And this will reduce AI performance. So I will reduce the pollution unhappiness effect and increase the effect on the environment. That should help the AI. quote: The last time I checked, Cradle used slic code to send the AI into an extremely aggressive state the further the game went, which could give the impression of a better AI if you simply gauge this by aggression. What I tried to do was make the AI make better decisions in all aspects. Dave also modified his strategies.txt and he increased the preority of attack goals and and max evals dramatically. The original settings force the AI to use defence/peace strategies even in war. The AI does not employ its war strategies enoough. So if the AI is on war with someone its army is in front of a defenceless foreign city and it has a defenceless own city, it will mocve its army to its own city instead of capturing the enemy city. And from the Cradle strategies.txt it looks that the AI will focus on war attack goals instead on defence goals even in peace. quote: If it could not win a war, why start one?  But why advoid a war if the human can't win and the AI can't win, either. The result is that the human can just wait and build up his armies until he can win. So the better consequence for the AI would be. Start a war now and survive or wait until the humin will destroy you. By the way I had to cope with this AI strategy (as I used your strategies.txt as a base, but now I have all the good stuff from, Dave, player1, you and me combined into one strategies.txt) and once I got the the huge production cities of the orange player and than I was unbeatable from my military rank, but if you don't have enough troops in a certain region, than your military rank is worth nothing there.

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Although Cradle has much more SLIC code then the MedMod (rough estimate: about 50-60% more and growing), I agree I somewhat understated the amount of code in the MedMod. So I edited my post there to reformulate that particular sentence a little. About the AI, I agree that your settings are very good. The decision-making of the MedMod AI might even be better than the decision-making in Craddle (but I don't know the AI files of both mods well enough to really be able to jugde that), but as others have stated, Cradle's AI gives the human a better challenge, and that's in the end what matters most to players. Cradle's AI is much more aggressive and thus puts more pressure on the human player (which is always good). To compensate for the possibly somewhat inferior economical and city management decisions, it cheats more (although I have no idea how much). Of course it would be much nicer to have an AI that doesn't cheat but when extra cheating makes the game so much more challenging I'll be more than happy to make some comprises. Playing on Impossible with the MedMod is interesting, with Cradle it is actually (at least early on) almost impossible... From an academic's point of view, it's quite possible that your AI is superior to Cradle but from a player's point of view it's Cradle all the way... (this is just the AI of course, in other areas the MedMod is better, as I mentioned in my review) quote: I just hope people have fun with whichever one they choose to spend their time on. I just hope people are smart enough to play with both! BTW, Wes, when did you last play Cradle? If it has been a while, I can really recommend you give it a go some time, it's very good. I do believe that if you and Dave would play each others mod a bit every now and then (if you don't do so already), you could learn a lot from each other. You both have some great things in your mod that aren't in the other one (of course, you're no longer working on the MedMod but it'll is still very fun to play Cradle)... I agree with Boney that an ideal situation would be to create a merger of Cradle and MedMod; but as I exlained in the Cradle thread, I tried this myself but I know that in the long run it would take more advice than I care to devote to it (hopefully someone else will pick it up or perhaps even a group of people)... Oh well, a guy can dream, can't he?

	08-05-2002 01:26									#22
	Remove this text

Sorry for being slightly off topic here but, since this seems like a good place to get the attention of SLIC programmers:

Some of us are trying to figure out the green food graph and it's relation to the amount of "breads" in a city's "specialist" panel.

Could someone who has seen the behind-the-scenes code come over to the thread called "about that green bar..." and see if you could shed some wisdom on us? I am also currently reading thru the "Science vs Commerce" thread and the "How to boost science" thread which has some detailed explanation for how tile output is calculated.

any help Much appreciated! And thanks for all the work on these terrific mods! LONG LIVE CALL TO POWER!!!

DOWN WITH CIV3!!! (sorry any civ3 lovers out there :-)

Last edited by DeanToth on 08-05-2002 at 02:36

	21-05-2002 19:53									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Just wanted to say that im new to CTP mod stuff and I found this thread very helpful, thankyou

PS I have all the civs and all the CTP's. Ive bene modding civ2 and playing civ3 for a while but im starting to go back to CTP2, but still i dont see why people should start attacking civ3. IMO civ3 is different experience and has some good features. I can enjoy a civ3 game every now and then and still play CTP. Why all this rivalry??

	21-05-2002 19:58									#24
	Tired of ads?

Hey, they started it

Nah, many people here simply dislike the silly outdated combat system, having to manage 200 workers, not being able to mod it, lack of MP, etc and therefore don't like Civ3. Other people like both games. Neither side is any more right or wrong than the other, it's just a matter of taste...

	21-05-2002 21:58									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

...yeah, some people like over-paying for the gourmet taste of four year old horsemeat.

	22-05-2002 04:40									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

You go IW!

	27-05-2002 03:14									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

So does the release of the Super Apolyton Pack v2.0 change things at all? How does cradle vs. Apolyton stack up now?

	09-10-2002 07:52									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Off subject somewhat, but I just noticed that when I download v1.5 of Modswapper, it still labels itself as v 1.12 after installation. Do I really have v1.5?

	09-10-2002 14:08									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

yeah, that is the right version, it confused me for ages...

	10-10-2002 03:03									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am trying to download MedMod for the first time, but can not get it to install into the Modswapper (or anyplace else.) I have v8.1 of WinZip, which is fairly current, so I don't think the fault lies there. I have had no problem with other Mods (Cradle or Goodmod). Any suggestions?