05-09-2000 04:41									#1
	The MGE AI may not be as vicious as we all think it is. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ming, If I posted this to the wrong forum please relocate.

I'm not as sure about our contention that the MGE AI is more aggressive then it was in 2.42 or FW, as I used to be. I recently played a MGE designed Deity level scenario where the AI was almost passive, except for the barbarians. I've checked with the scenario designer and he assured me that the scenario was designed with the editing tools from MGE. I will try some other scenarios that were pointed out to me over in the Scenario League forum, but it may be that our aggresiveness problems are due to trying to play CIC and FW scenarios using MGE. I originally thought that the scenarios included with MGE had been rewritten using the MGE editing tools. Recent gameplay of some of them has led me to believe that this is not the case. I've seen some of the same errors with the MPS scenarios that we get from downloaded FW and CIC scenarios under MGE.

I'm not good enough at regular gameplay to tell whether I'm getting trashed on Deity during a normal game because I waffle between trying to maintain peace and beating off the AI or if it is because of something in the game itself.

How many playing solo MGE games in the regular manner are finding that Diety is much more difficult than it was under FW or an earlier version?

Ken

	06-09-2000 02:04									#2
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Ken - there have been a couple of threads on the general topic of the MGE AI both here and in the strategy forum and everytime I post on one of those that it really isn't so bad I get slammed!

I haven't kept notes on MGE vs FW or CiC scenarios that I have played, so I am not sure about the design hypothesis. I'll be on the lookout for it going forward.

Generally I find a the MGE AI more natively hostile, but hostility and efficient hostility are two very different things. In fact I find it to be so inept when using resources as a hostile force that it makes the games somewhat easier. In MGE regular games and scenarios, I generally try to maintain more alliances than I did using earlier versions of the game. Give away gifts of technology. Trade maps periodically. Hide my civs strength. Try to keep other civs at war with each other. Keep my cash balance low. Don't demand tribute from friends, and keep a clean reputation.

Even older than the CiC scenarios, the WW2 .scn that came with the original game provides a host of troubles for the MGE player, but most have a workaround. I am writing up a piece for Polaris' Art of War at the moment.

	06-09-2000 10:41									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'll take a look at both the WWII and Rome scenarios. I haven't tried either of them in years. I was not favorably impressed with the WWII scenario when I tried it under 2.42(CD version) and found the Rome reasonably easy, but may have played at King level, I don't remember.

Ken

	07-09-2000 09:17									#4
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Try the first few turns of both scenarios in 2.42 and MGE with different civs. It is almost funny. I had been playing as Spain as part of a challenge to get a fast win and you certainly have to manage the AIs differently in the two versions.

Both scenarios are pretty (really) pathetic from a design standpoint, and were done prior to scenario macros, but they are universally available and played so they aren't a bad place to start.

	07-09-2000 09:40									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Maybe a point to keep in mind is that the AI's hostility can actually differ from game to game in MGE.

I'll find some games where the AI is demanding tribute, declaring war, breaking treaties... you name it, it's doing it. Then there'll be a game (about 1 in 10) where it seems to back off from that mode of operation. From what I can tell, I think it has to do more with starting position. If I'm in a secure location, fairly well removed from the AI players, that seems to help.

ICS also helps immensely. Thanks again, DaveV.



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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

	13-09-2000 20:08									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In MGE the AI tribes are hostile, but not necessarily aggressive. If you don't attack them they won't attack you much and will be warring each other instead.

Further, if you build up a sizable army, they will grow much friendlier, "uncooperative" rather than "hostile",
and even pay tribute out of fear.

Otherwise, even gifts from allies remain rare. More likely they will dissolve the alliance as soon as you ask for a little help, or demand all your money instead. Make sure to have at least one tech to give when you contact an ally in MGE, it may be the only way to prolong the alliance!

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	14-09-2000 00:11									#7
	Remove this text

Ditto to what Ribannah said. I read of people keeping alliances in OCC and wonder what on earth they are doing. The AIs are always at war with one another, and if you aren't on one side you're against both of them it seems. If you build a decent civ then they will demand your hearth and home unless you have a biggish offensive army.