18-01-2002 11:04									#1
	How many techs can you research in a turn? Increase the size of your Attachments

I havn't seen this posted anywhere and don't have much time going to the MOO3 website right now so I am asking here.

Will it be like MOO where you can research 6 techs at a time or like MOO2 where it is Ala Civ one tech at a time.

I loved multiple tech research. How about you guys, what do you prefer?

Davor

	18-01-2002 19:14									#2
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In MOO3, the only limit is due to your money, and you can divide that up as pleases you.

For fundamental research (the thing you have to do to learn what pretty toys are possible) there can be over 30 research fields open at any given time (there are 45 in total). You may have none, one, several, many, or even all of those active at once, funding them as you wish.

For applied research (the thing that actually gives you the pretty toys), you may have as many projects open as you feel you can afford, and fund them at various levels depending upon how quickly you want them completed. Any research points (what money becomes) left over after we deduct what you spend on applied projects are what go to fund your fundamental research, so you might have to make some decisions on how many toys you want to build all at once.

So...6? Ha, we laugh at 6.

	18-01-2002 19:25									#3
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Stormhound So...6? Ha, we laugh at 6.

Then I would like to ask this:

How long will my first tech take to develop, researching only that tech at the time? I mean, at the very beginning of a game, without having a financial deficit.

I just would like to mention that the first tech in Civ 3 will take about 25 turns IIRC.

	18-01-2002 22:04									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I don't have sufficient info to answer that question, and even if I did it would depend upon just how much of your budget you were putting into R&D. You might also be spending money on other things...

Also, we don't always give you absolutely accurate reports on how long a research project will take. There is very little perfect knowledge in this game.

	18-01-2002 23:35									#5
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Yeah, I know that discovering a tech will be more random than in MoO 2 (it won't be in exactly X turns). But I would just like to get an idea, that the average player would get his first tech around an average turn. And it's this turn that I'm curious about!

Oh well, I'll keep waiting then.
We can count on you to tell us when you usually get your first tech when you sart beta-testing the game, right Stormhound?

	19-01-2002 00:24									#6
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No, but I trust you'll be able to figure it out when you've played the game. I can tell you, however, that there won't be any upper or lower limits as with Civ3...it'll take as long as it takes.

Obviously, we have to have pacing in mind, so we'll be paying attention to comments from testers, but since styles and priorities can vary from player to player, and since there's a certain amount of variability to the tech tree, the "average" becomes meaningless.

	19-01-2002 23:18									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Will how far ahead/behind you are to the galactic average affect how long it takes to achieve higher tech levels? That would give an incentive to put very little into research in the beginning and make up lost time later.

	20-01-2002 10:38									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

No, so far as doing your own research goes. It'll have an effect on how much you gain by trading research information with others, however.

	21-01-2002 01:38									#9
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I am starting to worry about MOO3 a lot.

The more I hear about MOO3 the better it sounds.
At this point I have higher expectations for MOO3 than any other game ever (With the possible exception of Everquest and although it sucked me in for 9 months it did NOT meet my expectations).
One of the best things I heard so far were the cuts that were announced. They lead me to believe that the people in charge of this project have a realistic view of the game and what can be finished by release time.

Every time I decide how I want to design my race and what playstyle I want to use I find something new..... I am not going to have enough time to;
1) Spend time w/ Family
2) Work
3) Play MOO3
4) Spend time w/ Friends
5) Eat
6) Sleep

Looks like 5 and 6 we be put on the back burner and 4 will happen with 3 for a while.

Sammual

	21-01-2002 04:55									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: With the possible exception of Everquest and although it sucked me in for 9 months it did NOT meet my expectations

9 months of gaming is a disappointment to you? The idea of trying to please people like you makes me glad I'm not a game developer.

	21-01-2002 22:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by OneInTen 9 months of gaming is a disappointment to you? The idea of trying to please people like you makes me glad I'm not a game developer.

I hosted a series of MUD developer roundtable discussions while in college. An offshoot from these discussions was 2 different "Graphical MUD" development teams. If I remember correctly Brad McQuaid was one of the more vocal members of the chats. He got me very pumped up about the concept. So much so that I and a bunch of other Penn Staters started work on coding out own Graphical MUD (We got the basics down but the graphics sucked and our main "Graphics Engine" coder graduated and got a job).

Because of my MUD experience and the fact that I was a game reviewer at the time I got into the first Beta test for EQ. I saw the improvement of EQ through beta and into live. I assumed that the questing part of the game would continue to be improved after launch.

EQ was a special case. I had hopes for it that could not be realized with the current technology (A persistent world that is affected by the players actions).

MOO3 has me going so bad due to the IFP system. It has the ability to be a totally revolutionary step in game design (And spread the gap between the casual gamer and the hard core gamer if the AI is good enough).

Sammual - The late for work rambler.

	22-01-2002 05:32									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ah, a fellow MUD player ... I think my experience in that area is why I don't think there's going to be much in the way of persistent online worlds to meet our dreams for many, many years to come. It's a very difficult problem.

quote: MOO3 has me going so bad due to the IFP system. It has the ability to be a totally revolutionary step in game design (And spread the gap between the casual gamer and the hard core gamer if the AI is good enough).

I don't think it's soo much Revolutionary as the logical next step. I've been tossing around a few ideas in my head that work on a similar sort of basis to the IFP system for a while now, before I'd even heard that MOO3 was using it. ANd I know others have too. Myreaction was more of "finally someone's actually going to do something sensible and use this sort of thing!", than "wow, what a neat new idea".

I will be very interested to see how their implementation works though, from what I've heard the mechanics of it are somewhat different to how I would have implemented it.

	22-01-2002 12:24									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by OneInTen I don't think it's soo much Revolutionary as the logical next step.

If they do it the way I hope they do it will be Revolutionary.

Example - My GF is a technophobe. In the 3 years we have lived together I have taught her how to;
1) Turn a computer on and off.
2) Use MS Word to write a letter and spell check it (Spell check is the only function she knows other than TAB and Enter).
3) Check her E-mail (I set it up and created an Icon that takes her into her Inbox).
4) Reply to an e-mail.
5) Visit one of the web sites she has a bookmark for.
6) Search Yahoo for a topic that has one or two words.

Games (Other than Monopoly and the like) are beyond her at this point (She could easily learn, she is very smart, but she wants as little to do with a computer as possible).

She is an excellent role-player.

If she comes up with a concept for a MOO3 race and I help her design it. The IFP system along w/ the AI SHOULD allow her to play MOO3 with her brother and myself and not come in last place. All she would have to do is look over the AI choices and change what does not fit her “vision” of her people.

That IS Revolutionary.

Each part of the process that will allow her to do this is not Revolutionary in itself. The process as a whole will be.

If this game is done right the hardcore fanbase will get it the attention and kickstart it needs to start getting casual gamer sales. Once casual gamers can play against their hardcore gamer friends and stand a chance (And have fun) the sales will take off.

Any game that can span the hardcore / casual gamer line I will consider Revolutionary and it will make big $$$.

Sammual

	22-01-2002 20:41									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, as I understand the IFP system, you're still going to want to know when and where to use them to get the best value out of them. I certainly hope you have to, I think it would absolutely suck if a newbie who has no idea what they're doing just follows their "vision" for their people and beats a good, experienced player.

IFP need to have enough effect that you can influence the outcome of the game in your favour, otherwise you're playing a part in the book, not writing it!

After all, if playing well doesn't effect the outcome, nobody, hardcore gamer or not, is going to bother playing the game.

The reason why I say the IFP approach is evolutionary is because you're still playing the game, by vetoing the AI's decisions. What will be revolutionary is when you no longer play the game directly at all, but instead can only influence to outcome by selecting and directing your AI governors/servents/players/whatever.

At that point, it would become a much more roleplaying style character based game, where each governor has a personality and individual aims and goals. You'd only get whatever information the governers see fit to tell you (ie they can lie or cover up stuff), and the governor could completely ignore your requests and do what they think is best if they thought it best. Trying to figure out exactly who is and isn't loyal, and what their true motives are would be a huge part of making your empire run smoothly. Of course, one you discover such information, then it might become tricky to figure out what to do next (The governer is incompetent and I think he's lying to me and selling some of our resources to the enemy, but he's also given the people huge tax breaks so they love him and if I replace him they'll get rather irate ... )

So I see the MOO3 IFP approach as merely dipping a toe in the water, not taking the leap of faith towards the revolutionary style of TBS gaming I have in mind.

	22-01-2002 22:26									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The IFP system along w/ the AI SHOULD allow her to play MOO3 with her brother and myself and not come in last place.

I hope that these systems together can make her comparable to the computer (Better due to the fact that she will be less predictable) not able to beat a good, experienced player.

quote: Originally posted by OneInTen Well, as I understand the IFP system, you're still going to want to know when and where to use them to get the best value out of them. I certainly hope you have to, I think it would absolutely suck if a newbie who has no idea what they're doing just follows their "vision" for their people and beats a good, experienced player.

I think that we are thinking along the same lines but misunderstanding the main points a bit.

Sammual - He who is looking for a game his GF can get into where she will add something to the game.

	23-01-2002 07:57									#16
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Ah, when you said last place I thought you meant amoung the three human players competing.

I have no problem with a novice player being able to beat the AI (as they should be able to on the easiest difficulty!)

	25-01-2002 18:35									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

OneInTen,

Some of the real time games pretty much do what you're asking. Majesty, in particular comes to mind, although Rollercoaster Tycoon is about the same. I guess the next evolutionary step there would be, for example, to tell your people in Majesty that you want a new barracks and let them decide where to put it. Aside from physical locations of some building projects, you have no direct control of anything.

In general, though, I don't like real time games much.