19-01-2002 03:19									#1
	Staying above rising sea levels Increase the size of your Attachments

I suspect that this subject has been tossed about in several threads already, but I haven't been getting a lot of satisfaction lately with searching, so maybe we can start a new compendium of insight here.

As the title suggests, the situation is that the sea level is rising and there are important assets in the danger zone - what do you do?
0 - Whats so hard about this? Just put up the $#*!*%! Solar Shade ;
1 - I didn't like the way I did that terraforming anyway; Let it sink ;
2 - He's gotta have it! Raise that bridge ;
3 - Making do: Bring on the Subsea Trunklines ;
4 - What do you mean, Captain, the Sea level is getting higher?

So you build the pressure domes in the low lying bases, what do you do next. (Or, if you raise up the land under your sea base and it becomes part of an opponents landmass, is there a housewarming party?)

How about a general strategy, supposing that the goal were to keep the land/sea boundary in the same place as much as possible.

Pointers to relevant prior threads would also be appreciated.

Clearly, if you raise the land, you can keep it out of the ocean, but what are the side effects. Does the land go down somewhere else to balance it out, or are your engineers somehow building a vast hollow superstructure under your territory? What if you don't really want to trash all the kelp/solars you've painfully constructed just offshore and turn them into rocky/arid/fungus (and fungus denizens). Some things remain if the sea rises - you can usually still see the kelp, although you can't produce it until you raise it up again.

Just recently there was a thread that discussed, among other things, what happened when you raised or lowered terrain in the various special regions, like the jungle - it seemed that for the most part, it lost its specialness. But what about the mundane; if you raise a tile with a farm/solar on it, is it still there? IIRC, that stuff stays there; apparently there is a team of little (strong) elves hoisting the solar arrays up 1 meter at a time, 1000 times .

What about the terrain itself? As I recall, if you lift up undeveloped terrain, it goes through changes, like getting wetter or dryer and even rockier. The improvements may still be there, but they aren't working like they should. I think, but am not sure, that special resources tend to appear and disappear, especially, but not only, when you cross the water/land threshhold in either direction.

My main concern is with things like Boreholes and Condensors. Can you raise them up directly? If you raise a borehole and it no longer is on the lowest level of all the neighboring tiles, does it still work? If you can't raise it directly, if you raise the tile next door does that work? (There would be 2 variations of that; 1: where the neighbor is already 1K higher and it presumably would raise the borehole tile; and 2: where the neighbor is originally at the same height, does it reshuffle the heights maybe raising or maybe lowering).

How about those tiles along the north and south edges; do you have to raise each one or will every other one suffice? Do you end up with a 2 tile wide strip of beach?

So how about a big brain drain covering all you know about successfully dealing with changing sea levels.

Thanks

	19-01-2002 03:48									#2
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On a related note, I once tried to submerge an AI's base with formers and was surprised to see a Pressure Dome built at the same time as the base went under - I had been keeping tabs on the base and it never had been building a Pressure Dome. Does the AI cheat in this case?

	19-01-2002 04:08									#3
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Once you build a borehole, you can raise it with no impact. I sometimes make an energy park that way if the terrain is right. Build a row of boreholes at the coast, then raise some more land, and build some more.

I never paid much attention to what else happens, though.

	19-01-2002 09:34									#4
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IIRC, then if a base without a pressure dome is submerged, then it loses a random amount of pop before they can get a dome up (I think partially by switching production). If they can't pay the price, the city sinks. Also, it seems that if you try to drown an enemy base with a sea former, the price is insanely high (I've seen it cost around 32000 ECs!).

As to what to do about Global Warming: my philosophy is just to never let it happen in the first place. I find it really hard to deal with, and even if you reverse the effects with a solar shade, it totally screws up the landscape. (especially if you launch the shade 1 turn after the global warming starts, this means that the level goes up and then down, which is REALLY bad).

	19-01-2002 21:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Yxklyx On a related note, I once tried to submerge an AI's base with formers and was surprised to see a Pressure Dome built at the same time as the base went under - I had been keeping tabs on the base and it never had been building a Pressure Dome. Does the AI cheat in this case?

i have kept good tabs on the AI in these situations, and yes it is a cheat.

	21-01-2002 19:42									#6
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quote: Originally posted by moi i have kept good tabs on the AI in these situations, and yes it is a cheat.

Well, not quite a cheat, as the game will provide free pressure domes for your bases also! I used to build domes, but gave up once I realised this...

I'm not sure what the threshold is, but free domes are provided for all bases above about size 3.

	21-01-2002 20:33									#7
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really? i never noticed that; i always build domes in every base, just in case.

	21-01-2002 21:13									#8
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I also build domes in every base,because they also count as recycling tanks (although they dont add to any already there) and i have seen plenty of ai bases sunk through global warming (its quite hilarious in fact) and have also sunk ai cities with formers,but remeber the more terraformed stuff around the city,the more exspensive it is i also think (but not sure) the cost of the city is added to the price,thus the massive costs.

	21-01-2002 21:35									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I've seen bases (usually the Believer's) go under and be destroyed by global warming so it's not always automatic that a pressure dome gets built. Maybe it only gets built when a former is the culprit, or maybe the faction has to pay for it and if it doesn't have enough money the base drowns.

	22-01-2002 00:00									#10
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The automatic build of Pressure Domes doesn't seem to be a matter of money (only): Once I successfully sank a Morgan base (size 8 or 10 ..., SMAC V 4.0), and Morgan never was accused of poverty, also not in this specific game, IIRC.

	22-04-2002 12:49									#11
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I've found that if you launch your solar shade quick enough, sea level elevation doesn't happen at all. Very cool.

	22-04-2002 13:37									#12
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Yes, I found out recently that if you launch the shade on the turn that global warming starts there is no effect from either of them.

	22-04-2002 21:50									#13
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Terraforming up seems to magically preserve all terriforming including boreholes and solar arrays. The only time you need to worry is if you are terraforming up a landmark.

I am happy to hear about the feature of launching shade at the same time as the first notice is received. Because in all other situations you seem to compound the problem by getting both up and down fluctuations in the sea level.

If it is not possible to launch solar shade at the same time as the first notice of global warming, then I use a lot of caution in both terraforming up and launching shade at a later date. This is partly because I tend to ring my coastline with energy sea crawlers on tidal harnesses. Often terraforming up is as much of a loss as it is a gain for me, unless the warming is extreme.

So I first make note of the date so I can do everything in time without a panic. Then I'll build pressure domes in low lying bases (selling off the rec tanks as the domes are completed), selectively terraform up where the gains obviously outweight the losses, and finally move units such as crawlers to safer ground.

Sea bonus tiles magically transform into Unity pods when raised, so you'll want to nab those. You also will want to look around and see how the competition is doing. The damaging effects of global warming are felt unequally. If you have the least worries it is to your advantage to block any initiative to launch the shade.

One caution - there is not a complete correlation between lands "endangered" and those tiles that actually sink or become exposed. I my last game I lost several sea crawlers that weren't on "endangered" waters but the sea level drop (after the delayed launch of solar shade) was greater than expected.

	24-04-2002 04:24									#14
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quote: Yes, I found out recently that if you launch the shade on the turn that global warming starts there is no effect from either of them.

For me, this sometimes worked, sometimes it didn't. Is it possible that the Solar Shade sinks the Sea Level by 333m always, and the pollution sometimes by 333 m and sometimes by 167 m? (But then, in the course of 20 years I often had a sinking by by far more than 167 or even 333 m. And I always start the shade immediately after the global warming message ...

	24-04-2002 04:52									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

IIRC, you can't launch a solar shade more often than once every 20 years. You can't submit the same resolution to Council more frequently than that. I'm pretty sure the Launch Solar Shade option is covered by that restriction. If there are a lot of uses of gas and/or other atrocities being committed, you can quickly outpace the ability to shade...even the ability to raise terrain.

One of my IP/pbem games a few years back ended up with sea levels having risen in excess of 2500m. There wasn't much land left at the end.

	24-04-2002 16:47									#16
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IF you make the Council your beyatch and destroy or limit any industry but your own clean stuff, there's no problem.

	25-04-2002 00:25									#17
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Mongoose, if this is a reply to my post: I usually have the problem of an overall sea level sinking, as if the program forgot to raise the sea level due to pollution, as promised.

P.S. I still didn't play a game to get the "drowning victory ..." I'll really have to do.

	25-04-2002 00:53									#18
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Mong, go ahead and tell us, how much of that gas where you responsible for?

	25-04-2002 01:21									#19
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Adalbertus - that wasn't in response to you specifically, but to the general proncipal of being (easily) able ot offset rising sealevels with just in time solar shading.

Mr Wheel- it's damned hard to make a council of human players your 'beyatch'.

JT - No more than 85%, I swear! 4 of the 5 PBs were mine, too. I was Hive. Even went GREEN, and baby bases producing 6 minerals were in the high 30s in ecodamage. I made ~1500 ec a year for 10 years killing native life, and only got the half of it. Lost at least 20, maybe as many as 30 bases to native life and rising seas. Everybody should play a game like that...ONCE! Hmmm...seems I remember vetoing a solar shade resolution, too.

	25-04-2002 15:36									#20
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All of my strats or advice is strictly single player. In which case it makes sense.

	28-04-2002 08:59									#21
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Whenever global sea levels rise, I hurry pressure domes in all my bases, build a few sea formers, and prepare to live a new life under the sea.

{singing}Under the sea... Under the sea...{/singing}

No not really. But I will try drowning out my opponents as much as possible.

Last edited by Jethro83 on 28-04-2002 at 09:05

	19-05-2002 07:14									#22
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In one of my current PBEM games I just noticed that some of my coastal squares are "endangered." Not being the hindmost (I don't get the end of turn messages) in this game, I never got the warning, so I do not know how severe the warming might be, nor how long I have to take action.

I suppose it's too late for the solar shade option, so I'll rush build pressure domes and sea formers. What's the usual lag time between getting "endangered" warnings and actual loss of the square?

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that a coastal city will not always be submerged when the sea level rises - that sometimes the AI will build a pressure dome for you. Do we know how this works?

I'd hate to have my Super Science City sink under the waves because I missed the global warming warning... That would be worse than embarrassing!

	19-05-2002 08:05									#23
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If I suspect rising sea levels will happen then I just forget about sea forming and raise the land from the get go, it's fairly cheap to raise terrain as long as you keep extending your territory with new bases, and you can get more out of the raised terrain than the sea (in particular you can drill a heap more boreholes).

And anyone who claims the sea level can rise faster than formers can raise terrain is telling horrible lies, enough formers will terraform any sea level problem away.

	19-05-2002 11:51									#24
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You get 'endangered' warnings when the next sea level rise will sink that square. They come every four or five turns, I think.

	19-05-2002 19:51									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Zaphod Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that a coastal city will not always be submerged when the sea level rises - that sometimes the AI will build a pressure dome for you. Do we know how this works? I'd hate to have my Super Science City sink under the waves because I missed the global warming warning... That would be worse than embarrassing!

IIRC a city that is larger than size 4 will survive and get a pressure dome but you lose a certain amount of population (4 perhaps). I don't recall if you lose any facilities as well. Sorry I can't be more precise but I usually raise land to avoid this result so I have not seen it in awhile

	20-05-2002 00:57									#26
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Had this happen in the last multiplayer game I ran. My stupid friend decided to nerve gas and nuke the planet as the Hive (he took out quite a few of my bases in the process the bastard) and ended up causing sea levels to start rising 3733 meters. Terraforming will not fix this!

Several of my bases were reduced from size 14 to size 8 almost immediately and they were given a free pressure dome. I didn't lose any base facilities. Some of them weren't even in the water when this happened (though it was only a matter of time).

Has anyone seen 10 minutes of solid fungal growth and mindworm attacks? My friend did each turn until he was dead (took about 5), and the bastard got what he deserved for nuking me.

	20-05-2002 02:42									#27
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I disagree, terraforming can fix anything. For example by getting formers to raise mountains to 3000+ you raise a HUGE expanse of land (7x7 tiles to 1+, 5x5 tiles to 1000+), it takes 12 former turns to raise terrain, or 6 super formers 1 turn.

6 formers positionined between 3-4 bases constantly raising terrain will keep those bases high and dry unless the sea level is going to rise more than 1000 per turn, or 20000 over 20 years. Thats with the fairly modest formers requirement of 2-3 per base (and lets face it, at 3 rows super formers arent exactly expensive). (the exception is when the sea level is rising more than 3000 per turn, this might just submerge all the land on the map before you have time to react)

Ofcourse raising such large mountains is going to wreck havoc on your sea terraforming, which is why it sometimes pays to not have any (or atleast not rely on it - ie dont crawl it).

Also it's a different can of worms (excuse the pun) if you are the one causing the ED because you'll have to deal with the native life, the best solution tends to be using empath rovers and laughing all the way to bank. (by raising terrain you also greatly reduce the number of locusts that appear, seeing as they usually spawn at sea pops).

Btw heres a fun tatic if you are causing the ED, capture an enemy sea base in/near there territory and it will immediately start spewing out pops and locusts, then demolish the base and watch gleefully as the locusts attack your enemy.

	20-05-2002 05:04									#28
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quote: In one of my current PBEM games I just noticed that some of my coastal squares are "endangered." Not being the hindmost (I don't get the end of turn messages) in this game, I never got the warning, so I do not know how severe the warming might be, nor how long I have to take action.

I'm not PBEM player, but isn't it normally a matter of politeness that the first player mails the start/end of turn messages to all others?

quote: You get 'endangered' warnings when the next sea level rise will sink that square. They come every four or five turns, I think.

To my experience, it works somewhat like this (attention, it's just from playing games, I didn't do any thorough testing):
I usually got messages of a rise between 66 and 333 meters in the next 20 years. For little changes, (66 m) there is only one flood, at the end of the 20 years. For big changes, there are several floods - so for 333 m, five floods, every four years, would be sensible. So it might well be possible that the rises are handled in steps of 66 m, and there are as many floods as necessary in the 20 years period.
I often raised a solar shade in an attack of panic, even at a rise of 66m, which resulted in an infinite drop of the sea level ... but also in several steps (the players are limited to packs of 333 m.)

quote: I disagree, terraforming can fix anything.

Blake is right here, don't know if he is clear enough. The trick is that when you raise a square from 2xxx to 3xxx m, you are sure that 36 squares are higher than 1000 m. Little investment for saving many squares.

	20-05-2002 22:20									#29
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If in fact the sea level raise is every 5 turns (it is with 333m), then if you loose more than 3500m in that one turn, it should be beyond the capacity of terraforming. That means a total of 14000 in sea level rises or more in 20 turns (3500*4).

However, given that I haven't seen a sea level rise of more than 333m in about 2 years (and 333m less than 10 times in 2 years), don't quote me on the every five years thing.

	21-05-2002 12:51									#30
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Oh, joy! Another global warming thread…

Global warming in Civ2 is annoying, but rising sea levels in SMAC are stupid. Where the heck does all this water come from? In the manual it says Chiron has negligible polar ice masses.

Earth would experience only about 150m sea level rise if all polar ices melted. That would endanger a surprising number of cities well away from the coast, but the sea can't "go" anywhere after that.

Why is it that nukes throwing particulates into the upper atmosphere would cause cooling (documented for volcanic events), but in SMAC it causes warming? Chiron can grow fungus and worms, but it can't transmute matter or create ex nihilo.

Does anybody know of a "no silly-@ss sea level changes" patch?