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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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I've given this speach enough in various threads I thought I would institutionalize it by putting it in its own one here 
But seriously what I'd really like is a discussion on the personal dynamics involved in the New/Join decision. Your thoughts?
[pulls out soapbox, strides atop]
Please, please consider what is available in existing projects before you start a new project. There are few enough people really willing to work to make alterative civ games happen, so IMO its important they band together to work on relatively few projects to attain critical mass. That way some can actually become real Games! The alternative is lots of projects that use up time and effort, and never even get to the stage of putting out a demo.
Many years of history have shown that the odds against new civ-type game projects getting significantly off the ground are very high. If the typical course is followed, a project soon gets a few programmers who say they are interested and willing to work. Maybe a few of them actually will, for a bit. The success rate on recruits is like 5-10% for getting Anything coded. The design can actually evolve quite far without any code. But without a functioning game, there the design will sit.
I am sorry to have to say this Cassandra-like, but every new project dilutes the potential talent just a bit more. I've blurted out this basic speach many a time on the Apolyton forums. So far every nascent project to which I've given it has yet to even produce a fairly simple demo. Some of those projects started more than a year ago.
(I think actually Dale, and possibly Miznia, are exceptions!)
So I'm pushing for the people interested in starting a new game to join an existing project rather than starting another. That extra effort that they can give an existing project might be the critical difference between it taking off, and only slowly plodding along. And, purely from a personal perspective, I want to Play some non-commercial civ-type games!
[gets off soapbox, looking somewhat sheepish]
There are projects going in each of several directions from the original Civilization here in Alt Civs. Please check them out! I bet you can figure out which one I'm partial to...
If you are one of those interested only in starting something new, and you do go ahead, I wish you the Best of Luck, and truly hope to be able to play your game! 
-Mark
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dexter4dxm
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CA, USA
Jul 2001
time: 21:17
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although i have chosen the solo route, i can't help but agree with you guys. there is a countless number of projects that die out, many of them with little or no code done. i think the hardest part of making a game is sticking with it throughout the whole development process (or is the AI the hardest part? hehe). after about a month it loses its initial excitement, and it just gets worse as time goes on. fortunately, it gets better. you get to a point in the game where everything starts coming together, and the progress builds excitement. still, after all i've done, i'd be glad to start a new project in a second. i might work a little on the side, but as far as my alt-civ game goes, i'm here to stay. i decided early on that i will work on this project from start to finish, and perhaps beyond that. i guess what i'm saying is not so much that people need to join already existing projects, but that people need to stick with the project they choose for a much longer amount of time.
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RonHiler
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California, USA
May 2000
time: 21:17
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While I basically agree with your position, Mark, I think it makes no difference what we say
When a person decides to create a game, whether it be an alt-civ or an FPS or whatever, I think they usually come up with the initial idea away from the computer. They then get very excited about the idea. No amount of us saying "don't dilute the talent pool" is going to sway them. In their eyes, they've come up with the "next big-huge game", and they're going to make it and become rich, famous, etc. We were both there once ourselves, a long time ago
I think it is probably very rare for a person to come here and read about an existing project and get excited enough about it to want to join the team cold. If anything, it might inspire them to create their own game, and we're right back where we started.
And, in reality, I don't think it's really such a bad thing anyway.
The best new people for existing projects are those who have started their own project and had it fail. You can tell people until you're blue in the face how much work and time one of these projects is, but they just aren't going to really understand it until and unless they experience it for themselves. Someone who already has that experience and still wants to join a team is much less likely to leave after a few weeks, I think. Not to mention they have at least some practical experience in design, programming, whatever, which is good.
So let them start their projects. I root for each one to make it We know a good number of them are going to fail from past experience, but even so, those people who don't leave the game design world forever become better prospects for us to pick up and improve our own projects, heh. And those that *do* make it improve the genre in general, which is a good thing.
Darknight has been a *huge* help for us, where we've been severly lacking in artists, he came in and gave a lot of life to MD. And, as he says, he came from another project that didn't make it. In contrast, I've found that people who come in with no previous experience tend to wander off after a few weeks (though there have been exceptions!).
Ron
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Hi Ron, thanks for the detailed response!
quote:
Originally posted by RonHiler
While I basically agree with your position, Mark, I think it makes no difference what we say |
Actually I think it can have some effect on the margins, but basically agree.
quote:
When a person decides to create a game, whether it be an alt-civ or an FPS or whatever, I think they usually come up with the initial idea away from the computer. They then get very excited about the idea. No amount of us saying "don't dilute the talent pool" is going to sway them. In their eyes, they've come up with the "next big-huge game", and they're going to make it and become rich, famous, etc. We were both there once ourselves, a long time ago |
Actually I would have gladly joined another project those ages ago when I started Clash... I knew it'd be a huge amount of work starting from scratch, though I didn't know How Much!  But I didn't find a single other group, at least casting about. So I bit the bullet, and started. But it was quite a while of coding on my own before I went public... by then it was tooo Late to turn back.
quote:
Darknight has been a *huge* help for us, where we've been severly lacking in artists, he came in and gave a lot of life to MD. And, as he says, he came from another project that didn't make it. In contrast, I've found that people who come in with no previous experience tend to wander off after a few weeks (though there have been exceptions!). |
Glad its working out! For most of our regulars, including me, I think this is the first big project.
Continued good fortune to MD!
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felipevereador
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> If Clash were the only alt-civ project I could understand all the people wanting to start from scratch.
Well, I'm building a alt civ, and I can tell you, there are a number of barriers to join programmers in such a project, to start with there is the language barrier, I program in Delphi, an a C++ or VB programmer would be unaceptable (not that I dislike there languages, but it would slow the project down).
Also if someone whats to build a home-made game like this is because he tryed all combinations of customizations and still can't get what he wants, so a group project would take a huge time just so that everyone agrees with the game rules...
Also if you know you partners only by net one of the main phases of a project will be hard to do: the design, I like to draw my designs on paper and them build, so it's another barrier.
Felipe
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:17
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I'm not sure if my thoughts are that interesting, compared to veterans like Ron, Mark and Vel, but I'll add my thoughts too.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Please, please consider what is available in existing projects before you start a new project. There are few enough people really willing to work to make alterative civ games happen, so IMO its important they band together to work on relatively few projects to attain critical mass. That way some can actually become real Games! The alternative is lots of projects that use up time and effort, and never even get to the stage of putting out a demo.
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I agree about this with you. I have covered this issue somewhat in my latest unpublished The Column writing, but as it's more about alternative development in general, I'll cover it now then.
Indeed it's of course nice to be your own boss and have your nice little project, but in the long run it's demanding and easily fails because of lack of interest, time and associates you could work with. Okay, well, you can gather your own team and have fun and plan, but at one stage you need to kick off with the coding and other work. If the person would have looked for suitable project in the first place and joined them, time and effort would have been saved and maybe a yet another alternative project saved from vanishing. This is indeed crucial as we won't see that much success, unless we get working power houses that have ambitious teams that have enough members so that they can get the work done and more ideas can be gathered as all are assumable interested in the same issues. I may sound like a propaganda speaker or a reverend ("Alternative Development Evangelism" by Rasbelin ), but I see it as important that all the good pecies would be mended into larger and efficient groups as good, but still weak projects that have great visions and ideas vapourise and the work is maybe completely lost then. Already looking on e.g. SourceForge under TBS game projects gives you a worrying feeling as you notice how many projects are inactive or dead, despite they are listed there. I have encountered trouble many times while trying to lead the Stella Polaris project (which is actually Blake's task, but he's absent), but we have always somehow managed to stay alive and continue forward. It's turbulent, but I hope it will settle as we progress. However it has given me and the rest of the team important lessons and also strengthened the team and the project. What worries me is that alternative projects are eating ground from each other very effectively, despite the commercial preasure is very low, so this is IMO alarming soon. We seem to fight for the same potential developers, despite the number of people interested in working voluntarily (or somewhat paid like Courts of Candle'Bre, maybe even Clash) with alternative development. E.g. Stella Polaris has to live along with the commercial game Galactic Civilizations and the open source SMAC clone by the Freeciv project, which isn't a problem in general, but much of the attention seems to be drawn to the others. This is a common problem for small projects, so it's one issue that needs attention.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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quote:
Can't get a job with a game you only did 10% of. |
I disagree.
First, Gary Thomas, who developped a lot of things in Clash, once told us he got a contract because of Clash. He worked as an independant contractor, the people wanted to see what UI work he had done, and he told them download that and look. Admittedly, he did a lot more than 10%, but he didn't make everything.
Second, I remember when I went to join a game development ompany some time ago. They were interested in two things: How I wrote code (giving samples or by doing exercices). They didn't ask to look at programs I had done. They wanted to see it. So how you do things is the most important. They want to know how you code, so they know if you can be trusted. And you'll learn to code better if you code with others. Do not underestimate that. I think I code well, but I am always trying to learn from others. They teach you more than a book.
Last, in a company, including the game company I applied to, tasks are defined, and every one is assigned a peculiar task. You can sometimes get out of that task and do more, but you will have to interface with other people. Being able to show you made a game as part of a team, particularly if it was split on the internet which is not as easy a medium to communicate as working in the same office, then you show that you are able to work as a member of a team. And I guarantee that this is of utmost importance for a would-be hirer.
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Nebula
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Solo'ing is fun and rewarding I think.
Also only yourself to blame if the project dies
Last edited by Nebula on 10-02-2003 at 14:30
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Well, with yet another alt civs project seeming to be brewing ("Catapult" is the one I'm referring to this time) I thought I would run this up one more time. MrBaggins, if you get the chance, please read the article and consider teaming up with an already-existing project. Seems to me nothing in your manifesto could not be added to an existing project on alt civs, thereby making it richer. Of course very significant effort would be involved, but nothing like making a game from scratch.
Dale: And are you going to stick with Empire and refine it to the point where it has lots of replay value, or is it mostly a vehicle to get you a job in the gaming industry? I submit that if its the latter the gaming community will get little out of it that is worth playing more than a few times. I do hope you stick with it since it looks like something that could evolve into a fun game!
quote:
Originally posted by Nebula
Solo'ing is fun and rewarding I think.
Also only yourself to blame if the project dies |
That's great. But my point is that nothing of value for the community is generally left after such projects. If the same effort were spent on FreeCiv or another project with some mass the contribution would live on after the individual loses interest.
Dale and Nebula, each of you have had previous projects that you put a lot of work into, that now are discarded. (I realize there has probably been significant code re-use in some cases.) Frankly I expect your current efforts to have been similarly abandoned a year from now. It is a shame, because you are both very productive people with good ideas. I don't have anything constructive to say about how to change this given your goals, so I'll just shut up now. . .
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MrBaggins
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I do get your point and your urging, and would agree with you if I were looking to implement a different game idea rather than an entirely new way to construct a game.
If I joined, say, Clash... do you imagine it being a popular and viable voice... saying 'rip it all out and start over'?
The basic premise of any project could stay, but almost any implementation would need to be changed, from monolithic, to Game Shell/Game logic.
Unless someone is brave enough to step up to the plate and go with a completely modifiable Civ game, its not going to evolve on its own, or get commercially developed (it would be commercial suicide to develop the civ that could be altered to fit your tastes.)
Bolting on modification possibility will always make for a limiting excercise. It struck me that the only way that you could have a game that could be truely flexible, would be if the actual game logic that you produced, would be transparent. There will be no 'black box' except for, maybe AI.
I am not a development masochist. I'm also experienced enough to know this is a massive project. My motivation is that this is a project that will ultimately be uniquely useful and that its probably not getting developed any other way.
MrBaggins
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Well MrBaggins, I guess in my previous readings of your posts I didn't get just how radically different your desire is to make this game. But I have to say that I think a good chance at a Very flexible civ-type game, what you describe as bolt-on flexibility, would be more valuable than a likely-vaporware shell to be filled in at date TBD.
Please don't take my comments personally since I have no knowledge of your skills, drive, etc. I am just basing my assumption on the track record of such projects, and the very ambitious scope of yours. The "labor of love" only lasts as long as the love does, and your ardor may well fade in the amount of time it will realistically take to complete your task.
And because of your concept's implementation strategy you won't even get any positive feedback until rather late in the development. Sometimes the only thing that has kept me going in Clash it to see all the work pay off in something tangible that makes the game more fun.
quote:
Originally posted by MrBaggins
a completely modifiable Civ game
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Such a thing does not and will never exist, except perhaps as a high-level computer programming language. There are only levels of more-flexible or less-flexible. No matter how flexible you make your shell, people will want stuff beyond its capabilities. If your response is "we can put it in the shell" mine is then "you can also program the possibility into a conventional game!" 
Of course its your goal and resources so my thoughts are basically irrelevant . I've just got to try my arguments out on each new group in the hopes that a few will be convinced and improve the critical mass in alt civs that extra little bit. . .
I wish you the best of luck!
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Dale
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Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Dale: And are you going to stick with Empire and refine it to the point where it has lots of replay value, or is it mostly a vehicle to get you a job in the gaming industry? I submit that if its the latter the gaming community will get little out of it that is worth playing more than a few times. I do hope you stick with it since it looks like something that could evolve into a fun game!
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Short answer: Yep. Long answer: My golden goal for Empire has always and will remain to be to use it as my centrepiece in my folio to get a game-programming job. However, at the point where it's honestly called a game an evaluation will be done to see if it's viable as a "game of substance". I recognise the difference between the state of using it as a folio piece and using it as a "Alt-Civ game". It's a big difference. However, my commitment will remain the same to Empire after that point. No-ones ever going to say "no" to some money if we get this thing to shareware standard. Besides, my new house will be completely finished on friday with settlement, and I'd like a few extra bucks to put on the mortgage. 
quote:
Dale and Nebula, each of you have had previous projects that you put a lot of work into, that now are discarded. (I realize there has probably been significant code re-use in some cases.) Frankly I expect your current efforts to have been similarly abandoned a year from now. It is a shame, because you are both very productive people with good ideas. I don't have anything constructive to say about how to change this given your goals, so I'll just shut up now. . . |
Mark, I do understand and appreciate your efforts for the Alt-Civ community. There can be a million projects started and dropped at some point, but still no games to play. I'm sure you can see our point from your experience with Clash, that at some point you pass the point of no return, and the project goes from "something to do" to "a labour of love". We could almost throw your arguement back at you and say why not join our projects? A talented designer is hard to find.
On the other coin, I want to program. I know C++, I do not know java. Cross off Clash for me. I don't like Civ2 for many reasons, cross off FreeCiv for me. I'm a historian not a futurian, cross of Stellar Polaris. I can't see magic as a viable idea in Civ, cross of Candle'Bre. That doesn't leave too much.
That's why I started Empire, and will finish Empire. I believe I've shown my commitment level to a "labour of love" by my additions to the CTP2 community. I have more of a commitment level to Empire than I do to CTP2's Apolyton Pack. That's why I don't join another game.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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quote:
I know C++, I do not know java. Cross off Clash for me. I don't like Civ2 for many reasons, cross off FreeCiv for me. I'm a historian not a futurian, cross of Stellar Polaris. I can't see magic as a viable idea in Civ, cross of Candle'Bre. That doesn't leave too much |
Crossing clash for java is not a good reason. C++ is harder than java and java has been made partly as simpler C++.
I won't add anything, since it is mostly Mark's case anyway.
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Hey Dale. I didn't mean to imply that you should do something other than Empire. . . for one thing it is fairly far along! It is the people who have no project firmly established yet that are the target of this thread. But its good to hear of your committment to Empire.
quote:
Originally posted by Dale
We could almost throw your arguement back at you and say why not join our projects? A talented designer is hard to find. |
I don't quite understand what you mean. . . but anyway there's too much emotional equity in Clash. But as I've said before, if I were starting afresh I would join a project rather than start something new. Of course its easy to say, but I think its honestly true.
quote:
On the other coin, I want to program. I know C++, I do not know java. Cross off Clash for me. |
I can certainly understand wanting to stick with a particular language, especially the one you're experienced with. Laurent, why is that hard for you to take? Seems normal to me, although I'm obviously not a major programmer. If I'd been experienced with C++ I probably would have gone that way for Clash despite the advantages I perceive in Java.
quote:
That's why I started Empire, and will finish Empire. I believe I've shown my commitment level to a "labour of love" by my additions to the CTP2 community. I have more of a commitment level to Empire than I do to CTP2's Apolyton Pack. That's why I don't join another game. |
Glad to hear of your committment! Best of luck with Empire! I'm not glad you needed to strike out on your own, for the reasons I've cited. But hey, if that's what works for you its what you've got to go for. And you've at least built a functional team. I'd love to get an dedicated artist like hex into Clash. If someone comes along that you can't use, please point them our way !
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MrBaggins
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Well MrBaggins, I guess in my previous readings of your posts I didn't get just how radically different your desire is to make this game. But I have to say that I think a good chance at a Very flexible civ-type game, what you describe as bolt-on flexibility, would be more valuable than a likely-vaporware shell to be filled in at date TBD.
Please don't take my comments personally since I have no knowledge of your skills, drive, etc. I am just basing my assumption on the track record of such projects, and the very ambitious scope of yours. The "labor of love" only lasts as long as the love does, and your ardor may well fade in the amount of time it will realistically take to complete your task.
And because of your concept's implementation strategy you won't even get any positive feedback until rather late in the development. Sometimes the only thing that has kept me going in Clash it to see all the work pay off in something tangible that makes the game more fun.
Such a thing does not and will never exist, except perhaps as a high-level computer programming language. There are only levels of more-flexible or less-flexible. No matter how flexible you make your shell, people will want stuff beyond its capabilities. If your response is "we can put it in the shell" mine is then "you can also program the possibility into a conventional game!"
Of course its your goal and resources so my thoughts are basically irrelevant . I've just got to try my arguments out on each new group in the hopes that a few will be convinced and improve the critical mass in alt civs that extra little bit. . .
I wish you the best of luck! |
I understand that you have an agenda in saying this all... additional projects dilute the talent pool. New coders entering the talent pool entering a project in progress with a likelihood of success, actually increase that projects chance of success still further.
Most new projects fail because ultimately, the project lead is overly ambitious, not skilled or experienced enough, or simply runs out of desire to do tedious implementation... or their early design choices force them into a difficult to implement situation...
And there is a lack of backup, due to the limited pool of free help.
I've done complex design and implementation before... not for a game... admittedly... but still... the process is the same. I understand the scope of this project. The actual shell itself is managable to me... particularly with the new directx libraries.
My specialty is data modelling. In most instances I can tell how a situation will be modelled, just from prior experience. I know the pitfalls of certain modelling choices, and how performance and scaling will be effected. I can usually predict what data will need to be partitioned at the start of a project. Its just something that comes from experience.
I'm not a starry-eyed Civ player, who, disappointed he didn't get his idea implemented in whatever commercial game, decided to start his development career by writing a complex game including AI.
As far as positive feedback, I already have a directx map displayed. Its the starting point but everything I do from here will have some amount of positive feedback, even if they are just interface elements.
Saying that something is likely to be vaporware without knowing the situation, is frankly, presumptuous.
I wouldn't be interested in a compromise. I spend my time as I choose, and I wouldn't choose to spend it on a bolt-on solution to an existing project. I wouldn't be motivated on another team, and I wouldn't be fulfilled.
Regarding the completely modifiable statement: There are two defined requirements, in the game design brief: it uses an isometric tiled map. you place sprite elements on the map.
Its true that someone could wish to make a game beyond these elements. They might wish to use a hex map... or no 'tiles' at all. They might wish to have 3d models.
The shell would not help them, then, and 'Catapult' would not be for them... unless they would be prepared to write DLL's... but they might be better off designing their own game engine from scratch.
Other than that... the shell helps them... and they can alter the transparent game logic in whatever manner they choose... without the entry requirement of knowing an OO language... which is a pretty standard programming structure of these projects, AND figuring out how somebody did something, and how it could be changed. If they do know a compilable language... and wanted to extend their game in extrordinary ways, and call a custom writen DLL.. thats accomodated.
There is a big gulf between writing your own game or altering source code, and changing a 'designed to be flexibly modified' macro language definition. Its just not as simple as you say, as "you can also program the possibility into a conventional game!".
The game structure... as I'm defining it... will be able to emulate Civ2, SMAC, CtP, CtP2 and Civ3, maybe Clash too.
I'm not at a point of deciding the game logic yet... although there will likely be a cherry-picked mix.
I understand your arguement. I hear your concern. I also know that this isn't about needing anyones approval.
Thanks for the encouragement... and I'd wish you every success in your project.
MrBaggins
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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Hi MrBaggins, thanks for the detailed reply.
quote:
Originally posted by MrBaggins
I understand that you have an agenda in saying this all... |
You bet!
quote:
Most new projects fail because ultimately, the project lead is overly ambitious, not skilled or experienced enough, or simply runs out of desire to do tedious implementation... or their early design choices force them into a difficult to implement situation...
And there is a lack of backup, due to the limited pool of free help. |
I think the two factors are fairly balanced, with perhaps the latter being more important. If I thought it was primarily the former, I wouldn't go to all the effort of annoying people who are trying to start new projects. . . on the off chance I can change their minds.
quote:
I'm not a starry-eyed Civ player, who, disappointed he didn't get his idea implemented in whatever commercial game, decided to start his development career by writing a complex game including AI. |
Actually, I was when I started Clash! But nobody was making a game I really wanted to play. . .
I'd done some technical coding but nothing really big. I made a big mess of the code I did myself, although it was functional. We basically scrapped the code I did by myself after demo 4! I did get a lot better after that.
So you're way ahead of me!
quote:
Saying that something is likely to be vaporware without knowing the situation, is frankly, presumptuous. |
I did say I was basing the judgement on general experience observing civ-type game projects rather than your personal skills, etc. You can remind me of my presumption when you succeed . Till then I am unrepentant. Of course hearing your background does give some hope. (presumption strikes again!)
quote:
Regarding the completely modifiable statement: There are two defined requirements, in the game design brief: it uses an isometric tiled map. you place sprite elements on the map. |
I don't see how you can possibly do it with that few limiting assumptions and yet have it be significantly simpler than a programming language. (This is not meant to be a challenge to produce details now! I don't have time to discuss them anyway. . .)
quote:
The game structure... as I'm defining it... will be able to emulate Civ2, SMAC, CtP, CtP2 and Civ3, maybe Clash too. |
More power to you if you can do it!
I'd discuss this more, but I've got Clash tasks to do, so I'll just have to sit back and see what happens. Again, good luck!
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Dale
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Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:17
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LDiCesare:
I didn't mean to degrade Clash at all by my statement of crossing it off. What I was saying is that I want to stay within my language of choice, C++. I have done no java coding, and granted it may be like Visual Basic and Visual C++ and therefore easy to pickup, I know C++ well. In the time it would take me to pickup java and understand what the existing code was doing, I could have a C++ skeleton of a game up and running. So no insult to Clash intended, just preference.
Mark:
quote:
Hey Dale. I didn't mean to imply that you should do something other than Empire. . . for one thing it is fairly far along! It is the people who have no project firmly established yet that are the target of this thread. But its good to hear of your committment to Empire.
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To this I actually agree with you. If it's one person coming in with a new project idea, it would be better for that person to tack themselves to an existing project if their ideas fit. Hey, if nothing else, the existing project would benefit from fresh ideas. But when it's a team of people starting a new project idea (like what happened with Stella Polaris and Candle'Bre), then I'd be more inclined to keep an eye on it and wish them luck. And yes, I know this goes against what I did. But I have a more personal reason for branching alone at this point.
quote:
I don't quite understand what you mean. . . but anyway there's too much emotional equity in Clash.
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Like I mentioned, you passed the point of no return, when an idea becomes a labour of love. I'm passed it too.
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Glad to hear of your committment! Best of luck with Empire! I'm not glad you needed to strike out on your own, for the reasons I've cited. But hey, if that's what works for you its what you've got to go for. And you've at least built a functional team. I'd love to get an dedicated artist like hex into Clash. If someone comes along that you can't use, please point them our way !
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Thanks for the encouragement. You know I'll be uploading a number of builds for testing purposes and discussion, so you'll be able to see how I go. As for Hex, he's brilliant with those graphics. And a perfectionist too. We're currently looking at revamping a lot of the screens....... for about the 4th time. But each time it gets better.
And yes, I'll mention Clash if anyone offers services. However, like any project there's lots of tester offers, but not enough of the others.
MrBaggins:
Good luck with your project! All I can suggest is if you do go ahead with the project (which it looks like you will), make sure it's a solid design on paper (the mind doesn't count as I found out in my first attempt at an Alt-Civ), and get regular demos out. People get a little frustrated and drift away if they don't see their efforts in action regularly. Good luck mate.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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quote:
Laurent, why is that hard for you to take? Seems normal to me, although I'm obviously not a major programmer. If I'd been experienced with C++ I probably would have gone that way for Clash despite the advantages I perceive in Java. |
I just ment that learning java is almost a no-brainer when you know C++. I also developped a dislike for C++ because of a lot of little features in it that people at work tend to use which only make the code less reliable, harder to maintain, etc. I believe that C is actually better as an OO language than C++, because you can manage better encapsulation of objects than C++ 'private' keyword in public header files allows to. It is easier in java to have good code than in C++. So if you can code well in C++, it means you are a good coder, whereas you don't need that much skill to code well in java.
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Barley
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England
Feb 2002
time: 05:17
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Hi guys.
I'll apologise in advance as I have not read all the previous posts so if its already been raised (sorry).
Ok, there are a lot of people here with fantastic skills, imagination, dedication etc. If you look further afield at Poly there are 000's of hardcore games, many of which are dissapointed with the way maintream game development is progressing. I remember the idea's we generated during the development of Civ3, the in-depth discussions and analysis.
It seems to me that we all have a common goal though through lack of ownership or whatever, motivated individuals are pulling in different directions and to coin a few phrases there are 'to many chiefs' or 'to many in offense'
Can we look at setting up a community of interest? In which a Project Manager and other key responsiblities e.g. Marketing, Testing, Development etc are coordinated by specific individuals. The goal of which would be to design and publish a ground breaking Civ type game.
The ideas and various area's of expertise as well as the skills and contacts are out there within the Poly community, it just needs to be harnessed and people motivated to participate. There would be a Project Plan, milestones etc. We just need to pull in the same direction an WE CAN DO IT.
How can we take this forward, what do we need?
Mark_Everson - can you investigate?
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19-01-2002 05:49
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