15-02-2002 08:37									#91
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

on to JPJ

	15-02-2002 13:55									#92
	Full PM-box? Change here!

back around to Knowhow2 (2108)

	15-02-2002 14:35									#93
	Remove this text

turn 2108 to ironwood

	16-02-2002 09:35									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

2108 on to Aborman.

	16-02-2002 12:06									#95
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi all:

Move 2108 received, played and on to Mongoose.

Radman

	16-02-2002 14:52									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

MY 2109 sent to Darsnan.

	17-02-2002 04:52									#97
	Put an end to popups!

turn to ironwood

	17-02-2002 05:27									#98
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi all:

I thought I would let everyone know, since this is a "All human All conflict game, I just found out in another multiplayer game that once any human player is killed off with his last base captured, the game ends unless its self suicide!

If that happens I guess each of us will need to commit to the other players should that happen and to keep the game going for the others players, that we will redo that move and commit harri carri. Is that how you spell harri carri???? Anyway, I was not previously aware of this bug and thought everybody should know!

Radman

	17-02-2002 06:01									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That's odd. How does this work? Does the game treat the current player as "the player" and run an unsavable endgame when their defeated? Or does it simply try, at some point, to move the game along to the defeated player, and crash or something?

A hole like this doesn't make much sense.

Oh, and move sent to Aborman.

	17-02-2002 06:55									#100
	Support Apolyton

Hi again:

Well, in the multiplayer game I was in, the game simply ends (e.g. points, land position, etc. exactly like a single player game when it ends except you don't have the option to continue playing. Man, what an BUG!!!!! I was really surprised and never heard of this BUG before and I agree with you that such a hole in the multiplayer game doesn't make much sense!!!

Radman

	17-02-2002 07:41									#101
	Support Apolyton

Hello everyone!

Radman has described the situation accurately. It is a problem in an MP game.

The consensus here on 'Poly seems to be to handle it as follows:

1. The conqueror eliminates an opponent down to their very last base, but does NOT capture the base.

2. The conqueror leaves the last defender unit in the base.

3. The conqueror then sends an e-mail to the vanquished describing the situation and asking them to obliterate their own last base.

4. After obliterating their own last base, the vanquished player will then be able to save the turn and send it to the next player. The game will then continue properly and will skip the eliminated player the next time the turn comes around.

Obviously, you will need to have pretty substantial evidence that you could have taken the last base before asking someone to obliterate their own last base.

This is not an optimal solution, by any means, but it seems to be the best available.

	17-02-2002 18:24									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

okey then lets do it like that.... everyone agree?

	17-02-2002 19:20									#103
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Certainly.

So where is the turn?

	17-02-2002 19:38									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hi Mongoose:

Last word about move was it was still in Aborman's camp. I'm ready to get this game in 4th gear and speed it up if everybody's up to it.

Radman

	17-02-2002 20:47									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Radman; I'm game!

quote: A hole like this doesn't make much sense.

Some ancient history for you, Ironwood.

SMAC was originally released without hotseat or PBEM. As you might expect (perhaps you were there?) this lack was met by great demand for its inclusion. After telling the protestors, in effect, not to hold their breath, Firaxis surprised us all by including it in the first patch. I read Brian Reynolds post either at the old .owo forums or mabe on usenet that he had thrown it in there because it had ended up being much simpler to implement than he had supposed it was going to be.

The consequences of this eleventh hour addition are legion: the probe of a pactmate/ally bug, the AI bribing in Council in place of the human directing that faction, the retirement of hard coded units bug, the ending of the game on the elimination of the first human faction bug and the bug regarding the rejection of the Supreme Leader vote are the ones that come to mind immediately. I think there are others that I can't currently recall. Still, it's better than no pbem at all, I guess.

	17-02-2002 21:58									#106
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hi Mongoose:

Interesting history. Just strange that for so much effort into the game its darn near a fatal flaw!! It really is surprising they didn't patch it to repair the problem subsequent to noticing this "BIG HOLE" in the game.

Ol well, I guess we'll make due anyway and hopefully the rest of the players are ready for 4th gear

Radman

	17-02-2002 23:37									#107
	Tired of ads?

Yes, Aborman is supposed to have the turn. It turns out he doesn't, since I accidentally sent him the wrong file (again). Turn rezipped, resent.


Well, it seems to me that they never intended to include Multiplayer in this particular game. It seems the creators, ever since CivNet, consider multiplayer functionality to be an "extra" that deserves another release (like Civ2 MPGE).

I suppose there are reasons for this. You have to admit, this game isn't exactly designed for multiplayer. Like, I think it was Aborman, or maybe Black Sunrise, said (in the RP3 thread), with seven human players, if we manage one full cycle a week, we'll be finished in a good five years. It's not like PBEMing a board game like Diplomacy, or Axis and Alies. The implementation is, by the nature of the game, crude and akward.

Maybe this is why the developers are so reluctant to release MP versions of these games. I know I don't like releasing something crude and inelegant, regardless of how it's intended audience will percieve it.

I have never been so dissapointed as when, in a Western Civ class at the community college, I turned in an essay that I *knew* to be far below what I was capable of (had I put in the effort). It was very pretty, full of glowing generalities, and demonstrated that I understood a historical mechanism (in this case, the development of towns and cities from a village economy during the Middle Ages). The thing is, I had *no* factual material to support this general description: no years, no dates, no names, no places. Just the mechanism.

I got an "A" on that paper, and the professor loved it. It's a travesty, really.

	17-02-2002 23:58									#108
	Got spare money?

"...with seven human players, if we manage one full cycle a week, we'll be finished in a good five years..."

--- assuming we finish in 2360o that is.

We're managing a full cycle on average every 3 days. The troops should be home in time for christmas

Hari Kari - or however you spell it (doesn't really matter - it's how you pronounce it that counts, right?) is an honourable way to concede defeat - it's the bit about taking 10,000 colonists with you that takes the biscuit.

EDIT: mathematical miscalculation, "buzzes like a fridge he talks in maths" --- ok computer, let's get this show on the road.

Last edited by John Paul Jones on 18-02-2002 at 00:33

	18-02-2002 01:09									#109
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hopefully not all the players in this game are peaceful builders... because THAT would maybe take us well into the 2300s with still seven human players.....

	18-02-2002 09:28									#110
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hi all:

Move 2109 sent on to Mongoose! JPJ evidently was kidding about reducing the time frame of this game. Vendetta received from Hive!!!!

Radman

	18-02-2002 09:55									#111
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

MY 2110 sent to Darsnan.

	18-02-2002 18:05									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

on to JPJ.

To All,
I will be out of town until Thursday evening. FYI.

D

	18-02-2002 19:38									#113
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

thx for the notice Dar
2110 on to Knowhow2

	18-02-2002 21:39									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

turn away....

	19-02-2002 01:29									#115
	Increase Your PM Length

Turn to Aborman

	19-02-2002 06:56									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hi all:

Move 2110 in cyberspace to Mongoose

Radman

	22-02-2002 01:15									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

2111 to Knowhow2

	22-02-2002 14:57									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

turn 2111 to ironwood

	24-02-2002 02:19									#119
	Turn to Aborman Increase Your PM Length

Ironwood looked upon the town from his administrative center.

It was such a small thing, nothing compared to the great and vast cities of Old Earth, but every bit of it was private property, owned by the man most capable of running it (in many cases, this was Ironwood himself). There was no public housing, no government subsidized mortgages, not a shread of that which one would call "communal." It was all owned, by the person with the capability to make money off it, by the one who had worked hard and smart enough to be worthy of the rewards of wealth.

Ironwood felt the years weighing on him. Somewhere along the line, he had lost his vision. The youth had gone from his step, the fire gone from his eyes... but not quite. It was as if the fire was still there, but there were other quests to be undertaken, other roads to be traveled. His money would be an asset in this; it was not the end in itself.

The other faction leaders had never understood this. They called him "Greedy," "Selfish," and every other word ordinarly applied to a man foolishly devoted to the accumulation of wealth for it's own sake. Ironwood understood money not as an end, but as a means. The end was happiness. And Ironwood was not happy with his life.

He had often neglected his duties lately, turning more and more to just reading books in his study, or visiting with an old friend of his, a woman he'd met on the Unity years ago, and had reunited with him only recently. He realized that his work was done, and retirement was nigh. It would, truly, be a good retirement.

So he called for his personal assistant. "Keating!" he barked, with the authority with which he had always carried himself.

"Yes sir?"

"There's an announcement to be made. Tell the board that they'll have to find another CEO. It's time for me to retire."

Keating smiled at that. He knew how hard his boss had been working himself lately, and how little gratification it had brought him of late. "Yes sir." He started to turn to the door, but stopped. He turned back to his boss. "Sir, if I may say so? Well... you've done well."

Ironwood smiled at that, and replied simply, "I know."


Guys, I'm starting to lose interest in the game. The game isn't getting less interesting, rather my real life is getting more interesting, and playing my turns is starting to feel like a chore. I'm going to start a thread asking for a replacement for my games. I may return (and take the place of another burnout), but for now, I need a break from this. Spring is coming, and I'm feeling too restless to sit at a computer and play my turns.

	24-02-2002 03:18									#120
	Increase Your PM Length

Hi There,

I'm in IronWood1, which Ironwood, along with this game, is leaving.

If you don't have a replacement signed up, I'd be willing to replace him (and mabye one of you guys could replace him in my game? He's the Cybenetic Conc).

As he can testify, I am a fast returner, and can generally do 2 turns a day (not that a 7 game player game will be that fast ).

Although I've never played as Morgon (PeaceKeeping duty is my typical game) I wouldn't mind playing as him.

Comstr.