22-01-2002 19:47									#31
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Two terrorists(or 1) opened fire in Center Jerusalem near the famous Sbarro restaurant, they/he got killed by either soldiers or policeman. 10+ people were hurt, no information about dead.

	22-01-2002 19:55									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Werent the Allies destroying the German economy in WW2? And destroying homes?

That was probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen in Apolyton so far!

Are Israelis and Palestinians at war?!? Are they?
Because if they are, I don't see why haven't the Israeli seized military supremacy and destroyed every armed focus of Palestinian resistance? If they aren't, why do people keep getting killed?
I know that this subject is a hard and bitter subject to get over with, and get an agreement. But for God's sake, comparing it with WW 2 is just so... childish, dude!

	22-01-2002 20:22									#33
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29 injured. 5 of them seriously. Al Jazeera says that Hamas claimed responsibility.

	22-01-2002 20:56									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Absolutely! If you go around perpetrating human rights abuses it is difficult to condemn others for doing the same thing.

So what you're saying is that "he did it too" is a good defence? These ME threads can get so confusing. Also, I think your ignoring the time lapse here.

quote: The US however, at least partially redeems itself by acknowledging (behind closed doors, if not formally) that the American Indian extermination was a 'bad thing', and has made attempts to act more responsibly and humanely in more modern times.

I think the same could be said of Israel.

quote: I have nothing against conventional wars (although they should of course be avoided whenever possible), and I hardly think you can hold modern Germany accountable for the Allied bombings.

I hardly think you can hold modern Israel (or even 1948 Israel) responsible for Irgun bombings.

quote: The Isaeli government, on the other hand, has done very little to distance itself from its terrorists roots

Israel was founded by Mapai, not the revisionists. The Irgunists were excluded from government for 30 years.

quote: and it would seem that people like you are still continuing to try and excuse these roots and even justify them.

And since I'm an Israeli ( ), I guess that delegitimizes Israel too.

quote: Arafat doesn't ahve any control on those loonies in the intifada

1) So why should Sharon deal with him at all?
2) What does he have 30,000+ armed "police officers" with RPGs, boats, and even light armored vehicles for then?
3) Couldn't he at least state that he disagrees with them, or at least stop stating that they are his brothers and that he is "at unity" with them?

quote: but the way AS is dealing with the Palestinians, destroying many people houses and the Palestinian economy, is really not less terrorism than that made by Arafat 30 years ago.

It's nice that you consider your house and job more valuable then your life, but I think most reasonable people would disagree.

	22-01-2002 21:08									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Werent the Allies destroying the German economy in WW2? And destroying homes?

PA = Nazi ?

	22-01-2002 21:16									#36
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I wont shed any tears when arafat is gone. He is a thug and dictator. Anyone who defends him is a moron or brainwashed. Six Israeli leaders have been around since the movement for a free palestine. But yassir is still there....no elections......only thuggery,terrorism and propaganda.

	22-01-2002 21:35									#37
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I'm reading and I'm surprised. But now, I know some reasons why the islamic world hate USA and Israel.

	22-01-2002 21:41									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Natan So what you're saying is that "he did it too" is a good defence?

Er no. I was saying the exact opposite. 'He did it too' is not a good excuse.

quote: Israel was founded by Mapai, not the revisionists. The Irgunists were excluded from government for 30 years.

Are you claiming that Begin (sp?) was not a terrorist?

quote: And since I'm an Israeli ( ), I guess that delegitimizes Israel too.

No. It would delegitimize Israel if you were in the government though.

Besides - I thought you were American?

	22-01-2002 22:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Er no. I was saying the exact opposite. 'He did it too' is not a good excuse.

But that PLO terrorism is justified by the Irgun fifty years ago?

quote: Are you claiming that Begin (sp?) was not a terrorist?

I suppose the placing of mines on the railroads may have killed some civillians despite the Irgun's prior warnings, but there was not an army on earth at the time which didn't do the same.

quote: Besides - I thought you were American?

Yes, and that's why I put a after the "I'm an Israeli" - because I was annoyed when you seemed to imply that I was by connecting "the Israeli government" with "and you still . . ."

	23-01-2002 00:05									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Natan But that PLO terrorism is justified by the Irgun fifty years ago?

I don't think any terrorism is justified - by the PLO or anyone.

quote: I suppose the placing of mines on the railroads may have killed some civillians despite the Irgun's prior warnings, but there was not an army on earth at the time which didn't do the same.

That is the point - they weren't an army and they weren't at war. They were killing innocent people in a peace time situation to achieve their political ends. Sounds like terrorism to me.

quote: Yes, and that's why I put a after the "I'm an Israeli" - because I was annoyed when you seemed to imply that I was by connecting "the Israeli government" with "and you still . . ."

That isn't quite what I was meaning. I meant that by not condeming the past terrorist acts (of Irgun and related groups) you (and the Israel govt) appear to condone terrorism as an acceptable way to operate.

	23-01-2002 00:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh That is the point - they weren't an army

So if you're not acting on behalf of a state, you're terrorists?

quote: and they weren't at war.

I don't think such a large portion of the British army was present there to enjoy the weather.

quote: They were killing innocent people

What exactly are you refering to here?

	23-01-2002 00:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Natan So if you're not acting on behalf of a state, you're terrorists?

Now you are getting there....

quote: I don't think such a large portion of the British army was present there to enjoy the weather.

They were there to quell unrest and to try and catch the terrorists like Irgun. Remember that WWII had just ended. There are also a lot of British soldiers is Northern Ireland. Would you claim that people like the 'Real IRA' are not terrorists but are soldiers fighting a war?

quote: What exactly are you refering to here?

There were civilians killed in many incidents (like the King David Hotel bombing) but I would also say that the soldiers were innocent too. Or do you think they deserved to die? Would Hezbollah (sp?) stop being terrorists in your eyes if they only killed Israeli soldiers?

	23-01-2002 00:59									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Would Hezbollah (sp?) stop being terrorists in your eyes if they only killed Israeli soldiers?

In my eyes, yes.

	23-01-2002 01:02									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Now you are getting there....

I think that's a rather poor definition - were the Partisans during WWII terrorists?

quote: There are also a lot of British soldiers is Northern Ireland. Would you claim that people like the 'Real IRA' are not terrorists but are soldiers fighting a war?

They're not soldiers. But if they stopped gunning down civillians and blowing up shopping malls and just stuck to attacking soldiers, they would not be terrorists but guerillas.

quote: There were civilians killed in many incidents (like the King David Hotel bombing)

Again, the King David Hotel was a military installation.

quote: but I would also say that the soldiers were innocent too. Or do you think they deserved to die?

Most of the people killed in any war do not deserve to die.

quote: Would Hezbollah (sp?) stop being terrorists in your eyes if they only killed Israeli soldiers?

If we're going to use the term "terrorist" in a meaningful sense (and maybe we won't/can't) then I think we'd have to define them as guerillas if they renounced attacks on civillians.

	23-01-2002 01:13									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Natan I think that's a rather poor definition - were the Partisans during WWII terrorists?

Which ones? People like the French resistance were operating on behalf of a recognised government - the French govt in exile.

I think we may have a disagreement on the definition of the word 'terrorist'....

	23-01-2002 01:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Which ones? People like the French resistance were operating on behalf of a recognised government - the French govt in exile.

Meanwhile, many of the Russian partisans were not operating on behalf of the USSR, but on behalf of Ukraine or of themselves. I think there's more to being a terrorist then just fighting for something other than a recognized state - I don't think rebellion is synonymous with terrorism.

	23-01-2002 01:58									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Meanwhile, many of the Russian partisans were not operating on behalf of the USSR, but on behalf of Ukraine or of themselves. I think there's more to being a terrorist then just fighting for something other than a recognized state - I don't think rebellion is synonymous with terrorism.

Then we have to agree to disagree. I would certainly regard Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot as a terrorist.

	23-01-2002 03:48									#48
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About the King David hotel thing? They literally phoned up and said they'd bomb it. Anyone woh got caught in the way was not targeted, but stupid.

	23-01-2002 03:51									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Anyone woh got caught in the way was not targeted, but stupid.

No, because the British refused to heed or even acknowledge the warning, and even when the Irgun set off a small warning blast, they wouldn't let people leave the hotel.

	23-01-2002 03:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Natan No, because the British refused to heed or even acknowledge the warning, and even when the Irgun set off a small warning blast, they wouldn't let people leave the hotel.

Sorry, victims of stupidity.

	23-01-2002 04:20									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Eli So the Allies were also terrorists.

Yes, duh!

quote: The difference is that Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties, the Palestinians on the other hand try to kill as much civilians as possible.

So, unlike everything else you do, you're just terribly inept at not killing civilians?

	23-01-2002 04:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Which ones? People like the French resistance were operating on behalf of a recognised government - the French govt in exile. I think we may have a disagreement on the definition of the word 'terrorist'....

No they weren't. The French resistence was by and large the military wing of the Communist Party. It did not take it's orders from the government in exile, though it did cooperate with the Allies. So under your definition, they were terrorists. Tito's resistence in Yugoslavia wasn't carrying out it's attacks on the Nazis under the Yugolsav government in exile, nor were the Greeks or Italians. Overwhelmingly they were led by Communists who intended on setting up a Communist state after the Nazis were driven out. By your definition, the Viet Cong would have been terrorists, since they were not agents of a state, but an indigenous army opposed to the government of South Vietnam.

Furthermore, many terrorist groups act on behalf of governments. Hizbollah has carried out many attacks at the behest of Syria and Iran. The Nicaraguan Contras carried out a bloody terrorist campaign on behalf of the United States. UNITA and RENAMO carried out bloody terrorist campaigns on behla fo South Africa and the United States.

You need a better definition.

	23-01-2002 04:58									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I don't think it is fair to say that the modern Israeli army are terrorists. I don't think it is fair to say that Ariel Sharon is one either (although it certainly looks like he has committed atrocities in the past).

Agreed, though I still remind you that an Israeli court rules Ariel Sharon was not directly responsible for Sabra and Shatilla, but it does fall under his responsability, and therefore was disallowed from being Minister of Defense ever again.

quote: However, the state of Israel was founded on terror. The anti-British bombings were terrorist acts and the 'freedom fighters' of Israel definitely were terrorists. So it becomes a little difficult for Israel to condemn the PLO for their actions.

I disagree.

Israeli terrorists targeted military targets, soldiers, commanders.

I don't recall an Israeli attempt to harm Brittish civilians, surely not on Birttish soil.

quote: Of course, two wrongs do not make a right and all terrorism should be stamped out. I think both sides have a lot to answer for.

I agree both sides have things to answer for.
I disagree it's even similar.

quote: Ariel Sharon is one of the biggest bastards I have ever seen! Arafat doesn't ahve any control on those loonies in the intifada, but the way AS is dealing with the Palestinians, destroying many people houses and the Palestinian economy, is really not less terrorism than that made by Arafat 30 years ago.

1. On what evidence are you basing your claimt that "arafat has no control"? On your opinion and Arafat's exclamnations.
Arafat chose to set the terrorists free a year ago.
Arafat chose to order weapons from Iran.
Arafat chose to hand out back confiscated rifles, a week ago.

Even the USA says publically that Arafat can do much more and chooses not to do so. Infact, sources say they will soon threaten Arafat with cutting ties with him.

2. Destroying empty houses which are only used as turret stations is not equal to targetting innocent civilians with a bomb or a rifle at all.

3. Arafat has been officially responsible for terror until 10 years ago, and now is covertly ruling terror behind the scenes, with public CNN appearances to please Europeans.

4. The Israeli economy took as much of a hit as the Palestinian one. The Palestinian economy is dependant on the Israeli one and the access to Israel, and when Israel seals itself to prevent terrorists from accessing it, they suffer. It's sad, but we prefer our safety.

Furthermore, money going to the PLO is confiscated, since they are using it on weapons, like the ship of 50 tons bought from Iran.

	23-01-2002 05:03									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Would Hezbollah (sp?) stop being terrorists in your eyes if they only killed Israeli soldiers?

They'd move to the Guerilla category for me.

But they did target civilians, and even targeted jews outside of Israel, so it's out of the question.

	23-01-2002 05:03									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So, unlike everything else you do, you're just terribly inept at not killing civilians?

Actually, the IDF is a lot less inept at that then most other armies.

	23-01-2002 05:08									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot Are Israelis and Palestinians at war?!? Are they?

Yes/

quote: Because if they are, I don't see why haven't the Israeli seized military supremacy and destroyed every armed focus of Palestinian resistance?

Because we still give a chance for them to stop the violence.

We are aware that reoccupation is a major set-back and wish to avoid killing people (and an attack is bound to kill people).

However, with each new terract, Israel comes closer to the decision of reverting the decision to let Arafat in power.

In some time, the PA will be reoccupied, Arafat and friends cleared, perhaps some time of military regime, and then a new peace process with new PA govt. and new Israeli govt.

quote: If they aren't, why do people keep getting killed?

People are getting killed as a result of limited military campagins, which due to the urban and highly populated nature of the battle field, often have civilian casualties.

For the palestinian side, they target civilians wherever they go.

quote: I know that this subject is a hard and bitter subject to get over with, and get an agreement. But for God's sake, comparing it with WW 2 is just so... childish, dude!

I disagree.

Now that Israeli ministers are blamed to be war-criminals for having a war with Lebanon, and doing exactly the same as Allies in WWII against Nazis, it's only proper that we remind europeans how "easy" it is to wage war.

	23-01-2002 05:10									#57
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Natan, You are never gonna let me win, are you?

edit: specifed Natan.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 23-01-2002 at 07:08

	23-01-2002 05:27									#58
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You are never gonna let me win, are you?

??

I'm sorry

What did I do?

	23-01-2002 05:41									#59
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Arafat is starting to talk like Binnie.

	23-01-2002 13:23									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Israeli terrorists targeted military targets, soldiers, commanders.

then, israeli army is -now- a terrorism group?