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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
A better leader who really works for peace? |
I feel quite sure that Arafat is not going to resign. It would be totally out of character, in fact, it would be meaningless - this is the symbol of Palestine, the man who ties his Keffiyeh in the shape of Palestine, the man who says "I am married to the Palestinian people." For him to reason is a meaningless concept, especially since his people do live in the Arab world - none of the other leaders of his generation (or the next one) have resigned from power peacefully.
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According to the Isrealis I've talked to, such leaders do actually exist: Jibril Rajoub, Muhhamad Dahlan, along with most of the "second generation" of the PA leadership. |
IMHO, that's a peacenik fantasy. Mohammed Dahlan and Jibril Rajoub are heads of PA security in Gaza and the West Bank respectively; IIRC, Dahlan has had some disagreements with Arafat and has also been involved in the production of mortar shells. Jibril Rajoub was responsible for the kanagaroo courts which rounded up "collaborators" as a propaganda stunt. Marwan Barghouthi, head of Fatah in the West Bank, is more exreme than Arafat. The one genuinely good guy who is talked of as a contender is Sari Nusseibeh, Islamic philosopher and negotiator from East Jerusalem - but I don't think he'll ever get a chance. 
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catullus
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Norway
Jan 1970
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Define terrorist. |
I may help.
In Merriam-Webster online dictionary, terrorist is not defined, but Terrorism is:
quote:
the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion |
Terror is defined:
quote:
1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT
3 : REIGN OF TERROR
4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands
synonym see FEAR
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Norwegian online pedia CAPLEX defines terrorist as
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person who, by political or other reasons, makes use of violence or threats of violence to achieve his goals. (my translation)
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I think both definitions are pretty weak, as they wouldn't separate between a traditional terrorist and a soldier or leader of a country in war.
When it comes to use of violence, there is no contest between the two. Compare the killings and maimings done on civilians and the destruction of private and public property done by people the two leaders are in charge of.
IDF outperforms Arafat and PLO by orders of magnitude. More civilian kills, more houses blown to pieces, more families homeless, more people driven into refugee camps, more means of productions destroyed (especially in agriculture) and more public buildings and structures destroyed. The intimidation and oppression against the Israeli and Palestinian population can not be compared. Really.
Even if we were to add all but all Palestinian groups together, like Hamas and Hezbollah, they wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of terror created by Israel.
That wouldn't be fair, though. Laying the blame on Arafat on what all Palestinian groups do would be like putting the blame of the Oklahoma bomb on the USA and the WTC disaster on Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
C.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:17
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Concerning Rajoub and Dahlan, they are the only choice Israel has left. Of course that they both of them wont accept 42% of the territory and will be happy with it, but AFAIK in Taba and Camp David they were pushing Arafat and were trying to convince him to accept the deals.
They are no angels, but if they survive the Israeli crackdown(which will someday happen) the situation will be better.
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Goingonit
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Toronto, Canada - AECCP member
Apr 2001
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by catullus
When it comes to use of violence, there is no contest between the two. Compare the killings and maimings done on civilians and the destruction of private and public property done by people the two leaders are in charge of.
IDF outperforms Arafat and PLO by orders of magnitude. More civilian kills, more houses blown to pieces, more families homeless, more people driven into refugee camps, more means of productions destroyed (especially in agriculture) and more public buildings and structures destroyed. The intimidation and oppression against the Israeli and Palestinian population can not be compared. Really.
Even if we were to add all but all Palestinian groups together, like Hamas and Hezbollah, they wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of terror created by Israel.
That wouldn't be fair, though. Laying the blame on Arafat on what all Palestinian groups do would be like putting the blame of the Oklahoma bomb on the USA and the WTC disaster on Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
C. |
1. They don't "blow houses to pieces". That's tha palestinian's job. They demolish, with no civilian fatalities, previously abandoned homes that have been used by snipers.
2. Means of production. Where? First of all, there is a lack of any production going on in the occupied territories, and there has been for decades. As well, I don't think Israel destroyed any agricultural tools. Can you substantiate this?
3. If you were to add all Palestinian groups together, they wouldn't be as big as Israel, no, but I believe that they would have killed more people over the years in peacetime conflict.
4. It would be like laying all the blame for the WTC disaster on America and you know it. They have killed terrorists, but that doesn't make terrorism their fault.
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Rogan Josh
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I don't think it is fair to say that the modern Israeli army are terrorists. I don't think it is fair to say that Ariel Sharon is one either (although it certainly looks like he has committed atrocities in the past).
However, the state of Israel was founded on terror. The anti-British bombings were terrorist acts and the 'freedom fighters' of Israel definitely were terrorists. So it becomes a little difficult for Israel to condemn the PLO for their actions.
Of course, two wrongs do not make a right and all terrorism should be stamped out. I think both sides have a lot to answer for.
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by catullus
When it comes to use of violence, there is no contest between the two. Compare the killings and maimings done on civilians and the destruction of private and public property done by people the two leaders are in charge of.
IDF outperforms Arafat and PLO by orders of magnitude. More civilian kills, more houses blown to pieces, more families homeless, more people driven into refugee camps, more means of productions destroyed (especially in agriculture) and more public buildings and structures destroyed.
That's like saying that America is just as bad as Iraq since we killed more Iraqis then they killed of us. In fact, we killed more Germans in WWII then they killed Americans. Serbia comes to mind next.
[QUOTE]
The intimidation and oppression against the Israeli and Palestinian population can not be compared. |
This "intidimation and oppression" is called war: When enough lead gets thrown around in a given area, it becomes a less nice place to live. But while the PA (and Hamas, Fatah, Palestine Islamic Jihad etc.) are trying to increase the number of deathes on both sides, Israel is trying to decrease them.
quote:
That wouldn't be fair, though. Laying the blame on Arafat on what all Palestinian groups do would be like putting the blame of the Oklahoma bomb on the USA and the WTC disaster on Saudi Arabia and Egypt. |
No, Saudi Arabia and the USA have never declared themselves to be "at unity" with the perpetrators of those attacks and do not praise and encourage them.
Rogan Josh
quote:
However, the state of Israel was founded on terror. The anti-British bombings were terrorist acts and the 'freedom fighters' of Israel definitely were terrorists. So it becomes a little difficult for Israel to condemn the PLO for their actions. |
So I guess that since America was founded on extermination of indians, it's difficult for us to condemn Nazi Germany? Modern Germany was founded by foriegn invasion and mass bombing from the air, does that mean they can't condemn our bombing of Kosovo? Besides, the identification of the Irgun with Israel here ignores the facts of history. And finally, if the PLO would focus on military targets and government officials instead of buses, airports, and pre-schools, it would be a major improvement.
Eli: My first prediction is that the momentum of the Intifada will carry the Palestinians on to new heights of inflexibility and bloody-mindedness. And my second prediction is that we will both be posting on this web board when we found out which one of us is right.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Eli: My first prediction is that the momentum of the Intifada will carry the Palestinians on to new heights of inflexibility and bloody-mindedness. And my second prediction is that we will both be posting on this web board when we found out which one of us is right. |
All what I was talking about, was in the case that Israel will have to make some agreement. I still support beating the **** out of them, and liquidating all PA leadership, including those two.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:17
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Also, the Hamas says it will start a total war with Israel on all fronts in response for the action in Nablus today.
All I ask is one Katyusha on Tel Aviv or Ashkelon that will blow up in some empty area.
quote:
(14:00) Hamas declares all-out war on Israel
Hamas will commence a total war against Israel, the organization's leadership in the Gaza Strip said this afternoon in a released statement.
The statement said Hamas will make use of all possible means to attack Israeli targets and will operate on all fronts, Israel Radio reported.
The statement was made in the wake of an IDF commando raid in Nablus in which four senior Hamas operatives were shot dead in a gunbattle.
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quote:
(07:55) IDF special forces kill four Hamas men in raid
By The Jerusalem Post Internet Staff
An IDF special operations unit killed at least four Hamas military operatives during an overnight raid in the West Bank city of Nablus.
Palestinian sources said this morning that three of the terrorists killed in the raid were senior operatives from Hamas's military wing, Izzadin Kassam, in the northern West Bank.
Two of the Hamas men killed in the raid, Jasser Samaro and Nassim Abu Rus, were on a list of wanted terrorists Israel presented to US envoy General Anthony Zinni and subsequently passed on to the Palestinian Authority.
Samaro, 27, of Nablus, was involved in the suicide bombing of the Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem, and attacks in Haifa and the Jenin area.
Abu Rus, 27, of Nablus, was most recently involved in preparing explosives used in the Sbarro bombing, and suicide bombings in Haifa and Emmanuel.
He was also involved in the 1997 terror bombing of Jerusalem's Ben-Yehuda pedestrian mall.
The two served as Hamas's regional bomb-preparation experts.
Yousef Suraji, 41, a wanted Nablus region Hamas commander also killed in the raid, was deported by Israel to south Lebanon in 1992.
A fourth Hamas man, Karim Masarja, 23, was also killed by Israeli troops.
He was involved in two 1999 bombings in Netanya.
Several different IDF special forces units took part in the raid on the Al Majeen neighborhood.
The units found a weapons laboratory and large quantities of explosive materials when they took control of one five-story building in the city.
The weapons lab was later leveled by IDF troops in a controlled explosion.
Upon entering the building, a gunbattle broke out between the Israeli units and the Hamas men. Conflicting accounts indicate either four or five terrorists were killed in the confrontation.
Four soldiers were lightly wounded in the exchange of gunfire, Israel Radio reported.
They were evacuated for medical treatment.
The troops also arrested nine Palestinians in the northwestern section of Nablus suspected of participation in terrorist activities.
The Hamas men intended to carry out attacks on Israeli targets within the coming days, the IDF Spokesman reported.
Danny Ayalon, a Sharon adviser, said Israel was doing the job the PA had failed to do. "In Nablus, we took out a bomb factory. When the Palestinians do not do what they have to do, by fighting terror, countering and preventing it, then we have to do it," Ayalon said.
"We woke up from the sound of explosions in the apartment next door," said a neighbor, Lily Kalbouneh, a mother of two pre-school girls. "The soldiers shot on the door of the apartment [next door], and called on people to get out. With my two girls, I stayed under the bed to hide from the shooting."
(The Associated Press contributed to this report)
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:17
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Werent the Allies destroying the German economy in WW2? And destroying homes?
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:17
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A shooting teract in central Jerusalem.
No more information.
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by Natan
So I guess that since America was founded on extermination of indians, it's difficult for us to condemn Nazi Germany? |
Absolutely! If you go around perpetrating human rights abuses it is difficult to condemn others for doing the same thing. The US however, at least partially redeems itself by acknowledging (behind closed doors, if not formally) that the American Indian extermination was a 'bad thing', and has made attempts to act more responsibly and humanely in more modern times.
quote:
Modern Germany was founded by foriegn invasion and mass bombing from the air, does that mean they can't condemn our bombing of Kosovo?
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I have nothing against conventional wars (although they should of course be avoided whenever possible), and I hardly think you can hold modern Germany accountable for the Allied bombings. Anyone who participated in the Nazi regime should of course be punished, and the regime removed from power. Now that it has, and Germany has made very substantial attempts to rectify these matters I don't think you can hold the modern Germany in any way responsible. Just like you should not hold modern France responsible for the rule of Petain.
The Isaeli government, on the other hand, has done very little to distance itself from its terrorists roots and it would seem that people like you are still continuing to try and excuse these roots and even justify them.
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22-01-2002 07:18
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